Talk:Red Wall Gang

This is the talk page of a redirect that targets the page:
• Cherry Orchard, Dublin
Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at:
• Talk:Cherry Orchard, Dublin

This page was proposed for deletion by Ser! (talk · contribs) on 8 May 2023.

Crime and Criminal Biography: Organized crime

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Merge

The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived: outcome was: merged/redirected

As per the recent PROD, I (also) don't think that the subject here has been subject to enough coverage to warrant/support a standalone article. (As evidenced by the fact that, after 15 years, the article hasn't been expanded beyond 58 words. Three of which are the title. And six of which are the word "the" :) ). Unless there are other thoughts, and as an WP:ATD, I propose to merge/redirect the very limited content we have here to the "history/society" section of the Cherry Orchard, Dublin article. Guliolopez (talk) 21:42, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bump. As above, and unless there are other thoughts, I'll likely move ahead with the merge/redirect shortly... Guliolopez (talk) 02:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Very sorry to chime in quite late but I’d say I disagree. The fact there has been only few paragraphs for quite some time shows a lack of interest more than a lack of notability or coverage. There have been many articles about small crime syndicates like this, and I reckon it’s better to keep it as an article, in the admittedly faint hope that it can be expanded. Slamforeman (talk) 02:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya. Thanks for your note. Rarely like making these changes "unilaterally". In terms of:

Expansion; To my mind a merge/redirect doesn't preclude or prevent expansion. If anything it is possible that, if covered in the Cherry Orchard article (rather than this dead-end orphan sub-stub) someone may be more inclined to add more detail. And then the topic can be spun-out again. As the related title will still exist. (As, to clarify, I'm not proposing to delete the title. At all.)
Coverage; In honesty, and after looking extensively, I don't think "lack of interest rather than coverage" is the case. Other than the single reference we have in the article (JSTOR 3694973) I can only find ONE (passing) book mention, ZERO (other) journal references and a HANDFUL of web references (mainly this article, the journal entry it's based on, and mirrors/forums). If you succeed where I have failed (to find coverage which allows this article to be expanded beyond a DICDEF/sub-stub) then that'd be great. For myself, I've found no evidence of broader coverage.....

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 16:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion: I may be misunderstanding, but I believe you’re saying the article should be merged into the Cherry Orchard article, and if/when someone expands that section the article should be split off again. I feel it would save a lot of trouble if we kept this article, but created a new section on the Cherry Orchard article about the Red Wall Gang, where there be more traffic and more information would likely to be added. I think this not what splitting is, but I may be entirely wrong, and in that case I apologise.
Coverage: I agree with your assessment that sources, at least those available online, are scarce. However, I do think it’s quite likely there have are print news reports or mentions in books that haven’t been uploaded to the internet, as they seem to have been heavily involved in the 1995 riot(s) I see mentioned in a few places, like the Irish times, the independent (unsure if this is the same riot but it seems to be), and in a statement by the then Justice Minister.

Cheers! Slamforeman (talk) 22:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. RE:

"you’re saying the article should be merged into the Cherry Orchard article". Yes. That is my proposal.
"if/when someone expands that section the article should be split off again". Yes. That is my proposal/response to your "what if someone comes along and adds more content to the extent that a standalone article is justified" concern.
"it would save a lot of trouble if we kept this article". Frankly I don't understand this argument. This article has not been expanded in 15 years. No doubt because, based on my searches (in newspaper/print archives and indeed online) there is only scant passing mentions of the topic. Nowhere near what is required to meet WP:ORG.
"[we should create] a new section on the Cherry Orchard article about the Red Wall Gang, where there be more traffic and more information would likely to be added". I've already done this. Well over a week ago. It is to this section that I am proposing to merge the additional/limited content we have in this title. And to which the title (IMO) should redirect. (We do not need a separate standalone title to cover the same two sentences).
"the 1995 riot(s) [..are..] mentioned in a few places". NONE of those sources mention the subject of this article. And so cannot be used to expand this article. Some could, perhaps, be used to expand the Cherry Orchard section though. Which is partly why I'm proposing what I'm proposing.

Frankly, as noted, I really do not see the point in having a title that contains (and has contained for 15 years and quite probably will/can only ever contain) the same three sentences we might (otherwise) have in the Cherry Orchard article. Where the sentences/text would have context and relevance that it cannot/does not have here. (I do not understand the "but it might be expanded in the future" argument. As (a) what I'm proposing doesn't preclude that and (b) if there weren't enough sources to expand it in the last 15 years, it seems unlikely that sufficient sources will be written/found in the coming 15 years.. ) Guliolopez (talk) 15:16, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose you make a good point. I support this decision. Hope I haven’t wasted your time. Best wishes, Slamforeman (talk) 17:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Thanks. I'll leave it another little while (to see if anyone else has ideas or other sources arise) and then go ahead with the merge/redirect. Guliolopez (talk) 20:19, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merger complete. It's been over a month now since originally tagged/proposed and (based on the above and not having heard other thoughts since) I've gone ahead with the merge and redirect. (In honesty, and per above, there wasn't much content to merge - as pretty much everything was already covered in the target article. Which was one of the WP:MERGEREASONs anyway...) Guliolopez (talk) 19:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]