Talk:Red Top (missile)

WP:MILHIST Assessment

Very short, but quite possibly all there is to say on the subject. Please expand where possible. LordAmeth 08:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Subsonic usage only?

In Lightning Boys, I read that the Red Top was colloquially known as the "Red Flop" by pilots, and couldn't be launched when the aircraft was flying at supersonic speeds. Can anyone verify this? If true, it would explain the retention of Firestreak and be a useful (I think) addition to the article. 66.17.190.132 (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

If true, possibly only true in referring to the small-finned variants of the Lightning, the larger fin of the F.6 was specifically introduced to counter the increased side area of Red Top when carried. IIRC, the larger wing and fin area of Red Top ahead of the Lightning's CofG had a destabilising effect in yaw at supersonic speeds, hence the enlarged fin on later F.3 and F.6 Lightnings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.221.26 (talk) 17:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Red Top could be fired supersonic, and could also be fired at 4g, compared to the contemporary AIM-9B Sidewinder's 2.8g. Note that the AIM-9B had about a 50% failure rate over Vietnam, counting only the missiles that failed the standard pre-check before entering the battle area, never mind the ones that failed to launch or failed to guide in combat. The improved AIM-9D wasn't as good as Red Top either, and was only retained on Royal Navy and RAF Phantoms to save money on altering the already extremely expensive fighter's systems. https://defenceoftherealm.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/weapon-file-red-top/ (Technically you aren't supposed to mention that, in the Seventies, RAF Lightning F6s at least twice gained Red Top lock head-on against US Blackbirds illegally overflying the UK without clearance at Mach 2 at 80,000 feet plus -- the Blackbird crews couldn't detect the missile lock, but they could detect the fighter's radar lock and knew they'd be dead in a couple of seconds if the RAF pilot pulled the trigger, so the Americans stopped the illegal overflights and instead negotiated the Det-4 placement of Blackbirds along with the U-2s at RAF Mildenhall.) The late Brian Carroll has mentioned a Mach 2.0 live firing at a Mach 2.0 head-on target, which makes you think. It was not, however, necessary for a head-on target to be supersonic or at high altitude. Red Top is known to have locked on to a low-level high-subsonic Buccaneer head-on. https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/439670-effectiveness-firestreak-red-top-missiles.html The Sidewinder didn't even approach Red Top's capability until the AIM-9L of 1980s Falklands War fame, and it still wasn't quite as good. Firestreak was retained on Lightning F2As in RAF Germany, until they were replaced by Phantoms in the late Seventies, for the same reason the Sidewinder was retained on Phantoms: to save on re-engineering the fighter's systems. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:55, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Unclear meaning

I not exactly sure what this means:

Independently, in 1959 Jon Fozard of Hawker Aircraft also considered using Red Top on the Hawker Siddeley P.1127, assuming the aircraft to have a larger engine, a pair of Red Top, and the AIRPASS radar from the Lightning.

It seems to be saying that Fozard thought the P.1127 had radar and a larger engine, and thus would be capable of carrying two Red Tops. Can this be clarified or expanded upon? Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 02:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@BilCat: Better? Maury Markowitz (talk) 11:30, 18 April 2020 (UTC)