Talk:Red River campaign

WP:MilHist Assessment

Great length, great detail. I'm afraid I have no expertise to guide me on the accuracy or completeness of this article, but it seems good. Could benefit from an infobox, picture, or map, though. Also, maybe a disambig warning at the top, distinguishing it from Red River War and anything involving the SE Asian Red River. LordAmeth 11:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Found this site quite by accident. However, as a resident of Pleasant Hill,LA near where the battle took place, I found the piece very informative. The backgound of strategic planning and what happened to the major players after the battle was new information . The community puts on a re-enactment of the Battle of Pleasant Hill every April. User: bthomas 14:40 November 10, 2006.

References Section(s)

Some might argue that the inclusion of reference links to regimental histories and personal narratives is not appropriate for an encyclopedic entry as it makes the entry too long. I have tried to minimize the potential impact of the article length problem by separating the references into two sections - General, and Regimental Histories and Personal Narratives. However, even with that work-around, concern about article length, as well as deviance from reference style guides, is certainly a valid one. A potential counter argument is that providing links to such original sources is valuable to those readers who wish to learn more and/or who wish to gain a more personal sense of the events. However, if someone feels so strongly about article brevity that they wish to delete these references, have at it. I would certainly not gainsay that action. But, before doing so, perhaps another option to consider would be to create a new article (Wikipedia entry) that is a list of such regimental histories and personal narratives for the Red River Campaign? Just a thought, and best wishes from JuniperisCommunis (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Forces in Arkansas

2. District of Arkansas, commanded by Sterling Price, contained approximately 11,000 men consiting of three infantry divisions and a cavalry division. As the campaign began, Smith ordered two of Price's infantry divisions to move to Louisiana.

The two divisions ordered to Louisiana were Churchill's and Parson's. Are you sure that there was a third division of infantry in Arkansas? And according to [1] Price had not only one, but at least two divisions of cavalry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.254.112 (talk) 10:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

a series of battles?

A campaign is not a series of battles. A better description in the first sentence is in order, although I'm not sure what exactly to put. john k (talk) 12:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I would have thought that a campaign was exactly a 'series of battles', or possibly a 'sequence of battles'. What else could it be? Valetude (talk) 15:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Camden Expedition

Shouldn't the Campaign include the Campden Expedition? It was all part of the same Union Plan. While the two Union forces never succesfully linked up, that was the orgional intent. Should the Artile embrace both parts of the Union plan? Aleutian06 (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 16 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Red River campaign. Per Colin M, "In the absence of consistent capitalization in RS, default to lowercase." No such user (talk) 14:09, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

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Red River Campaign → Red River campaign – Lowercase campaign, like in the cited sources and other such articles; the capped title has not been previously discussed. Dicklyon (talk) 23:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 01:52, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose the capped version is used in the substantial majority of sources per NGRAMS results[2] (t · c) buidhe 00:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Ngrams are going to be misleading here. The count isn't based just on running text. It also includes cases where the term appears in a chapter title, or in the title of a book listed in a bibliography. e.g. "Stonewall riots" and "Stonewall Riots" are pretty close in count, even though it's usually not capitalized in running text. Colin M (talk) 01:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 10:18, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support I think the most relevant policy here is at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Military_terms: "wherever a military term is an accepted proper name, as indicated by consistent capitalization in sources, it should be capitalized". Dicklyon says that (most of?) the cited sources use lowercase 'campaign'. I haven't tried to independently verify that, but I'll take them at their word. I did a quick scan of google books, and it seemed to be a mixed bag. In the absence of consistent capitalization in RS, default to lowercase. Colin M (talk) 01:59, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edits to Infobox Statistics for Red River Campaign Battles

(moved over from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Edits to Infobox Statistics for Red River Campaign Battles) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BusterD (talk • contribs) 09:20, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Troop strength statistics were just significantly revised today in the infobox for a Red River Campaign (American Civil War) engagement: the Battle of Mansfield, which sharply reduced the number of Union Army participants while raising the number of Confederate participants. The edits were made by an unidentified user, and were not suitably referenced or explained elsewhere in the article. (On one of the edit summaries, the editor stated, "According to Shelby Foote," without providing any further details.) This same editor, who has only made three edits to date (all to Red River battle pages, including an edit to infobox data for another Red Red River engagement - the Battle of Pleasant Hill - that may also be inappropriate). Could someone more senior from the American Civil War team on Milhist please take a look and revert these changes if they're determined to be inaccurate and/or vandalism? 47thPennVols (talk) 00:18, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@47thPennVols: - The Battle of Mansfield edits are supported by Foote; I've added the citations into the article. The Pleasant Hill edit is simply to insert that the Union withdrew from the field into the result part of the infobox, which did happen and is mentioned in the article. I think these IP edits appear to be fine, especially since I've been able to add the Foote source. Hog Farm _Talk 01:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: I genuinely appreciate your willingness to take a look and provide input. I am concerned, though, that you're choosing to rely only on one source and that this source is Shelby Foote because multiple respected historians have repeatedly questioned Foote's accuracy and perspective. Even Wikipedia's own page on Foote notes that "While Foote has been praised as an engaging commentator on the Civil War, his sympathy toward Lost Cause viewpoints and his rejection of traditional scholarly standards of academic history have seen his work reappraised and criticized, as well as defended, in recent years," that "Foote had never been trained in the traditional scholarly standards of academic historical research, which emphasized archives and footnotes," and that "Foote has been described as writing 'from a white Southern perspective, perhaps even with a certain bias.'" (Admittedly, I am only presenting short excerpts from Foote's Wikipedia page, but I think these three quotes illustrate that, perhaps, Foote should not be used as a source, but that, if he is, then other sources should be consulted and included to either back up or provide balance to Foote's perspective.)

Additionally, I'm genuinely puzzled by your statement that "the Union withdrew from the field" during the Battle of Pleasant Hill because multiple historians have stated that the reverse was true. For example, American History professor Matthew Pinsker has written: "Continuing the heavy fighting and Confederate success at Mansfield the day before, General Richard Taylor attacked Union units attempting to consolidate after their retreat of the day before. Taylor attacked immediately but the newly reinforced Union troops held their ground and the Confederates were forced to withdraw" while U.S. National Park service historians have stated that: "Early on the 9th ... Taylor planned to send a force to assail the Union front while he rolled up the left flank and moved his cavalry around the right flank to cut the escape route. The attack on the Union left flank, under the command of Brig. Gen. Thomas J. Churchill, succeeded in sending those enemy troops fleeing for safety. Churchill ordered his men ahead, intending to attack the Union center from the rear. Union troops, however, discerned the danger and hit Churchill's right flank, forcing a retreat...." And historians and members of the planning committee for the 157th Anniversary, Battle of Pleasant Hill Reenactment and Festival, which was just held in Pleasant Hill, Louisiana in April 2021, recently noted that "Officially, the battle was a Union victory; as the Confederates were successfully driven from the field. However, because Banks and his army had retreated so soon afterwards, many argued over who had really won."

So, respectfully, my questions at this point are: Do you have any other source(s) (other than Shelby Foote) for the data you're providing about Mansfield, and what source(s) are you using for your statement about the outcome at Pleasant Hill that "the Union withdrew from the field"? 47thPennVols (talk) 09:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@47thPennVols: - I've clarified that the withdrawal at Pleasant Hill occurred after the battle, and have replaced the disputed in the infobox to note that historians generally attribute the Union with a tactical victory, and I have cited it to The Civil War Battlefield Guide edited by Frances Kennedy and published by Houghton Mifflin, and Red River Campaign by Ludwell H. Johnson and published by Kent State University Press, both of which seem to be reliable and neutral sources. While Foote isn't the strongest source, I've found Foote to generally be reasonable for troops strengths (although shouldn't be cited for Nathan Bedford Forrest, among other things), but I've added support from Kennedy and Johnson to the Mansfield troops strengths. Foote gives 9,000 for the CSA, and Kennedy and Johnson both give 8,800, which is in the same ballpark. Johnson supports the 12,000 Union soldiers engaged. While neither of them seem to mention the 20,000 overall for the Union, given that other sources are agreeing closely with Foote there, I don't see a big reason to doubt Foote for a pretty routine statement without a source contradicting it. Hog Farm _Talk 00:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: I genuinely appreciate your hard work to strengthen the sourcing and your willingness to have a constructive dialogue about these Red River Campaign articles. Kennedy and Johnson are sound choices. Best wishes for continued success with your research and writing. 47thPennVols (talk) 03:09, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

For my part I had the great pleasure of visiting the Mansfield battlefield (it is remote, lovely and well-preserved, partially thanks to recent investments by the American Battlefield Trust). Beware of Curt Anders's Disaster in Damp Sand, which I own. Anders is an interesting narrative writer, but I'm not impressed with his sourcing or his conclusions (nor were the park rangers, who intentionally didn't have a copy in their visitor-facing library or bookshop). Your conversation reminded me that I took some pretty decent photos which I've never reviewed or considered uploading. One of the issues some sources I've read don't adequately cover (as pointed out by the local battlefield guide) was the nature of contemporary road conditions. The "road" Banks's army used to march into Confederate defense was a soggy two-rutter with high banks on each side, making turning wagons around extremely difficult, and passing almost impossible for long segments. It's been a while since I absorbed those sources but my recollection is that Foote captures the Union's strung-out column correctly. Without unencumbered Union cavalry communication with Smith's river forces was difficult, and Lee was fully engaged. My impression of sources is that Banks was deeply surprised at the reverse at Mansfield and didn't arrive on the field himself for some time after contact was made (his chief of staff C.P. Stone arrived in front with Landrum's advance units). On the other hand, Confederates had their full complement of troops arranged in an inverted "L" position and advancing federals found themselves in enfilade fire from both sides as they approached. I've seen maps which clarify this. Despite the disadvantages, Union troops made effective attacks and retired well. That's my synthesis but it's based some some pretty extensive reading. I own Johnson's book and Porter's naval history (which is unkind to Banks), but they're packed away at this moment. BusterD (talk) 08:27, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

arbitary break for ease of editing

I have looked into the Battle of Mansfield (BM) and the Battle of Pleasant Hill (PH) which are part of the Red River campaign (RRC). I was particularly looking at the result of the Battle of Pleasant Hill. (Dot points are original post by Cinderella157 with subsequent comments interspersed)

• In RRC article, at BM the Union lost wagons. It then says that after PH: Short of water and feed for the horses, not knowing where his supply boats were, and receiving divided opinions from his senior officers, Banks ordered a rapid retreat downriver to Natchitoches and Grand Ecore. Both sides at the Battle of Pleasant Hill suffered roughly equal casualties of 1,600. It was a tactical victory for the Federals, but a strategic Confederate one because the Union army retreated following the battle.[27] However, the retreat had commenced before PH (see below).
• At BM article lead After a brief resistance, the Union army was routed by the Confederates ... Statement is POV not supported by sources in "aftermath". Aftermath does not discuss the result, as viewed by historians. The article states that part of the Union Army fled the field but Cameron was "pushed back" and Emory repulsed the Confederates.

@BusterD, 47thPennVols, and Cinderella157: - Does anyone happen to have a copy of Brooksher to see what exactly that source (supported Cameron "pushed back" and Emory repulsing) says exactly? I'll need to dig Johnson out of storage this weekend, but I have Kennedy 1998 p. 269 available at the moment, which states Soon Walker's men [...] helped Mouton's depleted ranks rout the Federals [Ransom, first Union line] and then has This force [Cameron] held the Confederates back for about half an hour, but, outflanked on both sides, they were soon routed and then lastly has Taylor's Confederates struck this position at about 6:00 P.M. and pushed the Federals [Emory] back slightly from the two streams. So we seem to have Brooksher stating that Cameron was pushed back and Emory repulsed the Confederates, and Kennedy stating that Cameron was routed and Emory pushed back slightly. So it looks like we have disagreeing sources here (or mis-citing of Brooksher). Hog Farm _Talk 03:32, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I own Brooksher, but I haven't seen the book in a while. In the next month or two I'm doing an inventory and I'll locate it. Here are a list of books I DON'T own but would like to read: Richard Taylor and the Red River Campaign by Samuel W. Mitcham Jr.; The Red River Campaign: Union and Confederate Leadership and the War in Louisiana edited by Theodore Savas, David A. Woodbury, and Gary D. Joiner; The Red River Campaign of 1864 and the Loss by the Confederacy of the Civil War by Michael J. Forsyth. I took photos of the books while at their museum. I looked at those photos today and the most interesting ones are of the massive graphic interpretative displays inside the museum which actually give out some statistics on casualties (but with no footnotes). I don't suppose we could use those images because of copyright, could we? BusterD (talk) 09:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Hog Farm, as I said just now (below) I'm not going to have access to sources. My observation were made based upon what the article said per the quotes given. Glad you are looking more closely at the sources and what they actually say. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:24, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

• From PH article, Banks (through Franklin?) had already ordered withdrawal to Grande Ecore before battle: On the morning of the April 9, Franklin ordered the baggage train to proceed to Grand Ecore.

Again, other sources like Johnson will need to be consulted later, but Kennedy p. 269 seems to suggest this was only a partial retreat by stating that Banks sent the wagons, two cavalry brigades, and XIII Corps to retreat back towards Natchitoches, while keeping one division of XIX corps, two divisions of XVI, and some cavalry with him for the stand at Pleasant Hill. Kennedy 1998 p. 271 also says the Confederate attack at Pleasant Hill caused the Yankees to continue their retreat. So there's at least one source supporting that Pleasant Hill helped influence the Union retreat, so I think it's fair to mention that here, even though some of the retreat may have started earlier.

From the article (and using my military experience) I perceive Banks had decided (before the battle at PH) to withdraw to the river. Consequently, he dispatched his (remaining) wagon train (he had lost a lot of his supplies hadn't he) and half of his force as protection while the remainder of his force remained at PH to screen the withdrawal. As the battle at PH developed, he attempted to recall (some of) the force that had departed (though this didn't happen). Was it a partial retreat (per "seems to suggest")? If it was only "partial", then what was the intent if not to withdraw to the river. 47thPennVols has indicated some primary sources which may shed some light on his orders made at the time and his "intent" as specifically expressed in them. These would be perfectly appropriate to resolve such an issue. Did: the attack cause the Yankees to continue their retreat or did they just keep doing what they were already doing. The text can be worded to report both POVs: "while X opines that it caused them to continue their retreat Y is of the view that they were doing this in any case (and the attack was therefore not "causative")". I guess I am saying: be clear on what the authors are actually saying and present conflicting views with balanced weight. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:26, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

• At PH article lead: That led the demoralised Union army to retreat the next day. The result of the battle was technically a Union victory but has been disputed by historians. Views on the result of the battle are not discussed so the dispute is not substantiated. The battle section recounts: However, the Union side succeeded in halting the advance and regained the left and center ground, before driving the Confederates from the field.

The claim of "disputed" seems to be largely spurious, I've removed this and replaced with Union tactical victory, with a few calling it a draw per the sources. I've tried to improve this, by adding brief sourced stuff to the body. Hog Farm _Talk 03:32, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

• WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX gives guidance on reporting the result. It restricts the options for reporting the result. The article does not follow the guidance.

Per the guidance there, I have trimmed it down to just state "Union tactical victory". I believe the addition of tactical is appropriate here, as I noticed last night when I looked at Johnson and Kennedy that both specifically state this to be a tactical Union victory. Hog Farm _Talk 03:32, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX (and the template documentation specifically cited by the guidance) deprecates such qualifying terms as "tactical victory". A tactical victory is still a victory. If you are not comfortable that this represents the consensus of sources, it could be "Union victory (see Aftermath section)" or just "see Aftermath section". Cinderella157 (talk) 11:26, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

 Done - I've removed the word "tactical" (although IIRC the MILMOS infobox guidance is mainly to discourage people inserting original research about what constitutes "decisive" into infoboxen) Hog Farm _Talk 04:20, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

The guidance deprecates "decisive" or any other modifier that might be used to qualify "who won and by how much". You are correct, in that it is largely to discourage editors from WP:OR but there was no suggestion of that here, I was simply pointing out the guidance. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 07:44, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

• My reading of the PH article is that it was a rear-guard action and a Union victory. Ref 25 specifically supports this. It is the only statement in the body of the article describing the result. The battle was covering a withdrawal and was not the cause of the withdrawal. It "may" be "inconclusive" but only if this is the consensus view of the sources. If there is dispute among the sources as to the result, this should be discussed in the body of the article (aftermath section) and the "see Aftermath" option should be used for the result in the infobox.

Ref 25 is pretty weak - it's a primary source Union army report. Although I do agree that the fact that part of the Union force had pulled back before PH should be mentioned, which it isn't for some reason. Just noting that Ref 25 in the version in place when the above comment was made isn't a strong source for the goals of the action. Hog Farm _Talk 03:32, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

The key point I am making is that the infobox (and lead) should be a summary of what is in the main body of the article and not a substitute for what should be in the body of the article. Hence, the aftermath section should clearly discuss the result of the battle as expressed in reliable secondary sources. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:35, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

There are issues with verifiability supporting statements in the lead/infobox that need to be addressed and that the lead/infobox are supported by the body of the article. There also needs to be better consistency between the articles - where the events at the conclusion of BM (aftermath) are the prelude to the PH article. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 05:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I've tried to address much of this to some extent, but as I'm fairly busy, I couldn't make particularly extensive progress here. Both articles need some pretty extensive cleanup. Hog Farm _Talk 03:32, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

It clearly needs work and I am glad to see you are taking it on and at your own pace - everyone here is a volunteer. I am only sorry that I can't really help with content. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:41, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

2nd break

While we're at this, if anyone can get ahold of Winters 1963, they may want to check these additions, as there's some edit history from one of the most prolific copyright violators in enwiki history in the Pleasant Hill article. Hog Farm _Talk 03:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Hog Farm, assuming you can verify the quote, I wouldn't use it as a quote but would summarise what it is saying. The Union army retreated in disarray, leaving a trail of discarded equipment and burning wagons. However, (as I read it) the wagons were attacked and, I would also see this as a significant loss to Banks and a reason to withdraw to the river. What do the sources say on this? Cinderella157 (talk) 11:55, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn't this detailed material [All of this section in full which has subsequently bee moved to this talk page Cinderella157 (talk) 11:47, 12 June 2021 (UTC)] be better served if it were all moved over to Talk:Red River campaign? BusterD (talk) 09:15, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

(boldly moved this comment from MilHist talk) BusterD (talk) 09:39, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

@Cinderella157, Hog Farm, and BusterD: First, I just want to thank each of you for your insights and collegiality. I believe these articles will ultimately end up being so much better because of the questions that are being raised and answered as you continue to bounce ideas off one another. Second, I'm providing a link here to Banks' Red River Campaign reports. (I realize this is a primary source and that these reports were Banks presenting "Banks' view," but I'm hoping that Banks' detailing of events as he saw them unfold (or was told of how they unfolded by Emory, et. al.) might be helpful in determining which sources might present the most accurate and balanced presentation by providing more of a chronological view. (The first group of reports, which were written by Banks from approx. mid-March 1864 to mid-May 1864, may be found on pp. 0177 through 0193 of The War of the Rebellion: Official Records of the Civil War (Serial 061 Introduction): Chapter XLVI. "The Red River Campaign". The second is Banks' longer recap, which was written on April 6, 1865 for a report to Edwin Stanton and the War Deprtment. That one begins on p. 0194.) Again, many thanks for your hard work. This past week was an incredibly busy one for me, but I hope to have some time this weekend to review and thoughtfully respond to those queries of yours which asked for my input. 47thPennVols (talk) 09:25, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks BusterD for the move. I was going to do much the same but to Talk:Battle of Pleasant Hill but here will do quite fine. There was always the possibility of the discussion being caught out mid-stream and this has happened. I would however have "closed" the discussion at MilHist rather than deleting it. Not a big issue though but just a thought. I will now try to catch up with all that has happened. Just a note for everyone (Hog Farm & 47thPennVols) the Civil War is not my area of expertise (or particular interest) but I contributed extensively to the Kokoda Track campaign and the individual articles for battles of that campaign. What I can offer is therefore more general comment on ways the article might be improved. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I've got a couple of MILHIST ACR reviews I've promised to do, so I'm gonna have to back away from this until I can get those reviewed. Hog Farm _Talk 15:00, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

• BusterD Technically, a museum (if it has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy) can be a reliable source. Although you couldn't upload the image because of copyright, an irregular citation something like "Plaque "title" at XX museum, visited YY date" would be OK as it is verifiable (you can visit the museum to double check). I believe published sources are generally preferable however. (t · c) buidhe 04:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that opinion. It is true that all sources don't need to be online. It could be argued that they only need be "published" by RSs and available for verification. An official state park historical museum normally would have little reason to offer inaccurate information to visitors and I have zero reason to think that this museum deliberately fails to provide precise and verified facts about their tightly-focused subject matter. Indeed my discussion of the subject with park rangers during my visit impressed me with their knowledge of sourcing, both the older and the newest ones. All that said, I agree sources published and widely available are preferred. I've offered some names of books I saw at the museum. As time allows and these questions persist I may end up purchasing and adding some to my personal collection. There are sufficient recent RSs available from which to produce reasonably accurate statistics until better are produced. BusterD (talk) 04:56, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Map Error

Shreveport’s location is marked incorrectly on the first map near the top. 104.8.140.235 (talk) 12:37, 26 January 2022 (UTC)