Talk:Real Sociedad Canina de España

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English or spanish

Oh, look, I'm not going to enter into a spitting contest about this one, but we have to have consistency. I was admonished for entering articles into English Wikipedia in a foreign language, "correct name" or not. Please see User talk:Quill#Spanish Kennel Club Which is it, folks??!! Quill 21:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, lovely, I have no idea. I'm not sure that I agree with the latest move, it does seem to have been done unilaterally (ditto with German Kennel Club). I'm not sure whether other people will find this discussion here & it probably needs to go somewhere where other dog-knowledgeable people are more likely to find it. Maybe dog project page again? Elf | Talk 21:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Per Wikipedia naming conventions "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." A sub guideline of that is "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." This is the official policy (not a guideline) of wikipedia, so there's not much room for debate unless it falls in an abiguous category, like the name of a band or something that is so unique to that country/language that even English speakers call it by its foreign equivalent, like the Rio Grande (and not the Big River). So, in my opinion, since the International Kennel Club is very known in the English speaking world, and the respective country members are referred to by their "country plus Kennel Club" (ie - the Mexican Kennel Club), then this should follow that model. And of course, there would be a redirect from Real Sociedad Canina en España to whatever whatever. How about we keep it as it is for now, but nominate this for a rename and see what the consensus is. Or, any one of you have the option of asking one of the admins in this area.--Esprit15d 21:29, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Elf is one of the admins in this area (as am I) but that's really not relevant - Wikipedia doesn't work that way :) -- sannse (talk) 22:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus for now. —Nightst a llion (?) 08:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Talk:Real Sociedad Canina en España — Real Sociedad Canina en España → ??? – To reach a consensus on the Kennel Club naming systems. Per Wikipedia naming conventions "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." A sub guideline of that is "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." However, since the Kennel Club is an international organization, there is some dissent on how the matter should be handled. --Esprit15d 21:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Discussion

I think they should be named in english, they are NOT international organizations if each country has its own "chapter". Mike _{(T C)}

21:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I did not realize that Moving the article to the true name would cause a discussion or I would have discussed it here first. I believe we have to be consistent for all Kennel Clubs with whatever we decide. Surely, this has happened before with other names at Wikipedia. With this new FCI list, I think it would help to allow the correct name as it is sorted by country. List of FCI kennel clubs CordiallySirIsaacBrock 22:34, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It probably wouldn't have caused a discussion, except that it was originally entered (by yours truly, as it happens) at its 'true name' and a move the other way had just recently been made. At any rate, discussion is good. Quill 22:40, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most country's kennel clubs are referred to by English-speaking dog folks as roughly English equivalents; for example, see this list. Only the FCI, which is truly international, seems to be referred to almost always in English by "FCI" (this link) or its native name in full. Elf | Talk 23:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There really is no need for a vote. That's not the way to decide this - we should try discussion to reach consensus first. Let's just hear some opinions, especially those of the people who regularly edit in the dog area. I'm a bit out of that for quite a while, but I agree with the general principle of English names being primary, and would prefer to see all the clubs moved to fit with that strategy. -- sannse (talk) 22:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that there's any need for a special policy regarding the names of kennel clubs other than whatever policies and guidelines are used to determine the names of organizations in general, whether they are chess federations or kennel clubs. *Dan T.* 23:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, we're mixing at least two concepts here. The first is that English does something that most of the other major languages don't do, and some (like French) take affirmative steps NOT to do, which is to simply import a word, phrase or concept that does not exist in English right into the language and "Englishcize" it (I'm not saying 'Anglicise' because Americans are even better at this than Britons.) Once that happens, the words are never translated back into English because they become, in effect, English words. We don't translate detente, spaghetti legume or terrier and we no longer write them in italics (or underlined) because they are, in effect, English words. Would you be able to find The Winds, Coloured or The Angels on a map of the US? Okay, you get my point.

FCI is interesting because it seems to be almost at that point but not quite. The full name is sometimes translated into English (I suspect that's because the full name is just too hard for non-French speakers) but the abbreviated form is always FCI. I think FCI should be left at FCI for the above reason, and that's a separate issue from the naming of the individual country clubs.

Now the second issue is whether or not the kennel clubs of non-English-speaking countries should be named in their native tongues or in English translations. This is the English Wikipedia, so English speakers are likely to type 'Spanish Kennel Club' or 'kennel club Spain' when searching. Having said that, it's a simple thing to simply direct 'Spanish Kennel Club' to 'Real Sociedad', so I don't think I have an opinion on that, reallly....But wait, on the other hand, I think Esprit does have a point...mugwumpping, here.

Quill 22:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.