Talk:Ravioli

The singular of 'ravioli' is still 'ravioli' when referring to the food. c.f. Chambers Dictionary, Cambridge Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, and American Heritage Dictionary. As a plural it can be written 'raviolis'. 136.2.1.153 09:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

this may be true in English (as much as it makes me cringe!). In Italian "ravioli" is plural. Mariokempes 20:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That picture is about the grossest representation of ravioli that I can imagine. Just saying...

I beg to differ, I would actually love to find that recipe. It seems that "lemon dill shrimp ravioli" only exists on wiki pages though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.77.162.175 (talk) 12:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Wonton

Funny that in Chinese raviolis are called "Italian wonton" because in French I've read that wonton are "Chinese ravioli"! Perhaps that would be nice to link that info together with wonton and ravioli.

In Italian wonton is also referred to as "chinese ravioli".Mariokempes 20:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I originally added that tidbit. In Chinese there is no simple translated term for pasta as a type and each type is often called as "Italian xyz" with xyz referring to the closest counterparts in Chinese noodle or filled dumpling products. It does not only confined to Italian foods. In Chinese Maultasche is called "German wonton". --JNZ 04:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Word Origin Confusion

This article currently states that "ravioli" means "little turnips" in Italian and elsewhere states that it comes from an Italian word meaning "to wrap".

I understand that these two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive -- perhaps the Italian word for "little turnips" derives in turn from the Italian word for "to wrap"? -- but these statements are nonetheless confusing. Perhaps someone could clarify the matter? --Skb8721 (talk) 18:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a definition of the word "raviole" in French as pieces of pasta containing minced meat and minced turnip in Lent (Frédéric Godefroy, Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue française). The etymology traces back to 1228 and seems to be the oldest mention of this word. Xiaomichel (talk) 11:39, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Seriously?

Why would the MAIN picture be of some weird variety of ravioli.

The most comoon kind of ravioli in the world is traditional meat or cheese ravioli covered in some variation of tomato sauce.

This article blows. Very little detail or history, crappy writing, few facts. A typical politically correct Wikipedia article with little info.

Nice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.227.143.106 (talk) 03:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC) I totally don't get this, I mean, the Spice Girls are WAY better than this band Ravioli! I've never even heard of them! I mean like what is totally up with this? ~~I♥SpiceGirls —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.186.100 (talk) 00:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Added Kreplach to similar dishes list. Also added some wording to Other Cuisine section linking Kreplach Irondome (talk) 03:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Uneaten meat

Under the "Around the World" section, a reference is made to uneaten meat, can someone clarify? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.227.40 (talk) 23:59, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Industrial ravioli?

Removed the following claim: Today, ravioli are also made in worldwide industrial lines supplied by Italian companies such as Arienti & Cattaneo, Ima, Ostoni, and Zamboni. The sense of the sentence is not clear. Ostoni, at any rate, makes ravioli machines rather than pasta; as for the other companies, I couldn't say. Since the sentence follows a claim about home-made pasta, I presume the intention was to balance the previous claim. In that case, a better sentence would be: Modern ravioli is also mass-produced by machine. A litany of manufacturers of ravioli machines is certainly contraindicated. Richigi (talk) 21:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe linking one of the manufacturers to any WP articles that exist on them may help? Cheers! Irondome (talk) 21:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Cheers, Irondome. Well, I found a source (kind of) and put in the wording above. I wanted to give a nod to Italian-made machines, but frankly I could not support it with a source. OR-wise, I found many Italian manufacturers but also found them in North America (with Italian names, of course). What I really think is that the section is misnamed "Overview": it is certainly not an overview. It appears to begin by describing how ravioli is traditionally made (in Italy presumably), then goes into regional differences. Perhaps the original confusing industrial claim was also meant to describe ravioli in Italy, hence the Italian manufacturers. Anyway, it might be better if re-organized, or at least that section renamed. Since Irondome is the top contributor to this article, he may have an idea? Richigi (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that a major change in the article must have been made way back in its history and the industrial machinery stuff is the ghost of an original section now long removed. New stuff must have been added but some original industrial wording was left, and it has been morphed into the new stuff. It sounds a good plan to rename or reorganise. Im temporarily out of the game because Ive lost some WP functionality re: symbols :/ no idea why. You go right on ahead. Will be watchlist-watching for a few hours anyway. Cheers! Irondome (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Internet meme

@Yamboyeatsyams:, The most recent attempt to add the Internet meme here was automatically reverted by a bot account but it would have manually been reverted anyway. The content was supported by a link to Know Your Meme, which is a frequently problematic website. In this case, the linked page did not support the text you have been trying to add and the website itself is a collection of random user contributions. This means it fails both the verification standard and the reliable source standard. I recommend not trying to continue adding a meme that has no real notability. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:47, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

bias of most supermarket-offered fresh ravioli, and restaurant ravioli, towards basic cheese ravioli

It seems like most (manufactured, not home made) fresh ravioli as opposed to canned, is predominantly just cheese ravioli or at most combined with mushrooms, and hardly ever meat filled. But that may be in the locale where i am in. Not sure how we would substantiate if that is more generally the case worldwide, it strikes me also that in restaurants quite often cheese ravioli is the only type offered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.35.33.66 (talk) 04:45, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Pansoti

Why does "pansoti" link to this article, yet the term "pansoti" is mentioned nowhere in the current version of this article? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Word Origin Confusion

There is a definition of the word "raviole" in French as pieces of pasta containing minced meat and minced turnip in Lent (Frédéric Godefroy, Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue française). The etymology traces back to 1228 and seems to be the oldest mention of this word. Xiaomichel (talk) 11:39, 20 March 2023 (UTC) In French Rabiole means turnip, rave too, but in italian it is rapa

Raviole is a French word, and the oldest recipes of ravioli are French (raviole du Dauphiné, raviole du champsaur...). The Italian made it famous because of their influence in the US, that's why people think it is Italian but this is wrong. 2A02:8388:8C04:6D80:3891:AD69:5B1:B80D (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Please see our policy on reliable sources and on synthesis. The ultimate origin is actually unclear, but it seems to have started in Italian, not in French -- see, for example, the Trésor de la langue française and the Oxford English Dictionary. --Macrakis (talk) 19:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Macrakis,

We have a French document from 1228, giving the word "raviole" in French and the recipe (" pieces of pasta containing minced meat and minced turnip in Lent") it even mentions the turnip and we know that "rave" and "rabiole" are words used even in modern French to say turnip. In Italian there are no sources older than this one. The source I gave (Frédéric Godefroy, Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue française et de tous ses dialectes du IXe au XVe siècle) can be checked online and is a reliable one.

Ravioli are part of the tradional cuisine in the east of France (for example raviole du dauphiné) and north-west of Italy, these two regions are interconnected since centuries. It is totally acceptable to think that the origin is in France and the recipe became popular in this area including Provence, Savoie, Liguria and Piedmont. Xiaomichel (talk) 10:09, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Having lived in Grenoble, I'm familiar with the ravioles du dauphiné. It is perfectly possible that ravioles developed in Savoie and Provence as well as in Liguria and Piemonte. Of course, the local languages there were not French, but Provençal and Franco-Provençal.

In any case, that does not change the need for reliable sources for etymology. Individual attestations are evidence (primary sources), not conclusions. As far as I can tell, good dictionaries of English (OED), French (TLF), and Italian do not trace the word to French. Actually, the Treccani says just the the origin is unknown.... --Macrakis (talk) 13:22, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

French was already an official language in the Dauphiné in 1228. As you said the origin is unknown and there are not clear conclusions, but the only thing we know is that the oldest source is in French.

In the current article, it is written in introduction that "the word comes from italian", I think that the French hypothesis should be also mentionned as we have this source that also comes from a good dictionnary.

In English dictionaries the French etymology is not mentionned because English speakers took the word directly from italian. Xiaomichel (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Since when do dishes get named in the administrative language? Anyway, we follow RS, not our own reasoning. --Macrakis (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

"Frédéric Godefroy, Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue française et de tous ses dialectes du IXe au XVe siècle"

is this not a reliable source? Xiaomichel (talk) 14:44, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

That is a reliable source for the use of the word "raviole" in French in 1228. It is not a reliable source for etymology, since it does not give an etymology. We cannot conclude from the fact that the oldest attestation is in French that the etymology is from French. But I agree that the etymology section can be improved. --Macrakis (talk) 19:53, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

It is an etymology as it said that the word derives from Rave (turmip in French). "piece of pasta containing minced meat or minced turnip in Lent" Xiaomichel (talk) 09:21, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Etymology

The article currently reads:

An early mention of ravioli appears in a French document from a church in 1228, where they are described as pieces of pasta containing minced meat and minced turnip in Lent.

The 1228 document is actually not in French, but in Latin, and reads in full "viginti denarios in masura Johannis de Villeio, ..., et quatordecim in masura La Raviole, ..."[1], that is, "14 denarii from the house/manor of La Raviole". Apparently "La Raviole" is a manor in Virey-sous-Bar (Vireium). It's unclear how this is related to the food. The second citation given in this dictionary does clearly refer to the food:

Des gens qui ne faisoient autre chose que faire crousetz et raviolles, qu'on cuisoit en bouillon de chapon.

That is "people who only made macaroni and ravioli, which they cooked in capon's broth". This is in Antoine Le Maçon's 16th-century translation of the Decameron (14th century), which in the original reads:

niuna altra cosa facevano che far maccheroni e raviuoli e cuocergli

By the way, neither the 1228 nor the 16th century document says what they are made of -- that is the dictionary's definition. In other words, these sources do not give any evidence of a French origin for the word "ravioli". --Macrakis (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok thank you for the original text from 1228, I have not read it before, it's interesting.

I don't think it is correct to say that the French borrowed the word from Italian, they borrowed "ravioli" but not "raviole".

In the CNRTL they give the etymology from two French texts: Jeu d'amour (beginning of the 14th century) and Le Ménagier de Paris (1393). I have not read the original text from the beginning of the 14th century but it is described as "morceau de pâte contenant du hachis", it is maybe the first description of the recipe. We also have a source in Franco-provençal, from the French region of Forez ("farina per ravioles", 1322) mentionning that it includes flours in its composition(https://www.google.at/books/edition/Vari%C3%A9t%C3%A9s_g%C3%A9ographiques_du_fran%C3%A7ais/tF5cAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22farina+per+ravioles%22&dq=%22farina+per+ravioles%22&printsec=frontcover).

Finally, another source from the 14th century mention the raviole in france near Grenoble as a dish for Lent (à chaque personne, au commencement du repas, un œuf et trois ravioles). (https://www.historiaregni.it/curiosita-culinarie-piemontesi/). Xiaomichel (talk) 15:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Macrakis, Gastrela 33, and Woodlandscaley: I want to point out that I went through User:Xiaomichel's edit history, and it's clearly a single-purpose account dedicated entirely to removing mentions of the Italian or Austrian origins of French dishes, despite often citing sources that explicitly describe the Italian and Austrian origins of those French dishes.

More discussion at User talk:Xiaomichel#Single-purpose account.

Stephen Hui (talk) 06:47, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2024

Rather than an Indian cuisine (as mentioned, Gujiya from Gujrat, which has a different name in another part, like 'pirikiya' in Mithila region {present day northern part of Bihar-India and some part of Nepal) it seems to be a kind of Mithila/Bhojpuri food named 'Daal-Pithi' which filled with lentils/pulses grind with spices and ghee-butter, wrapped in flour dough and steamed or served with broth. 178.152.1.232 (talk) 07:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)