Talk:Rathaus (disambiguation)

On merging the article with City and town halls

A Rathaus, is a city or town hall. The article on City and town halls links to Rathaus on the German Wikipedias and back again. This article links to no other wikipedia. This is simply yet another case of German-speaking wikipedians who believe German is a language somehow intranslatable to English.Rex 10:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The formatting obscures it somewhat, but Rathaus is clearly intended to be a disambiguation page. As such, redirecting the user to a more general articles on town halls is unlikely to be helpful. Most town halls are never referred to as "Rathaus". --Stemonitis 13:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That makes no difference that Rathaus is the generic word for town hall and no building fuctioning as a town haus exist called "Rathaus".Rex 14:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I understand. Assuming our current article titles are correct (and according to my own personal experience), the Rathaus in Vienna is usually called Rathaus, and the Rotes Rathaus almost always so (one sees "red town hall" and the like in translation, but not intended as proper names). Yes, in German it is a generic term, but in English it is much more restricted in its usage. --Stemonitis 14:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You definately don't understand. If I write "Rathaus" in an English text, it does not refer to a single building in the world. It just means town hall. Rathaus (surprise surprise) is not an English word. Hence it has no usage. The Wiener Rathaus = the Vienna City Hall. Simple.Rex 20:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But you would never talk about the "Amsterdam Rathuis" or the "Manchester Rathaus" (and nor would I). Rathaus is only used for certain buildings, and therefore does not have the same generic meaning which it of course has in German when used in English. In English, it forms part of various proper nouns, and cannot be applied more generally. "City Hall" is a poor translation, for various reasons, including that "town hall" is often used even where the entity has city status. The text "Vienna city hall" can be (and often is) used in an explanatory context, but does not replace the proper noun it translates. The same is true of other names; "Red Town Hall" is a risible attempt to translate a term which any knowledgeable person would call Rotes Rathaus. --Stemonitis 21:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Prove it. Prove that English works that way with Rathaus. Note, poor English versions of German sites are not good enough.Rex 11:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See my comments above. The word is not generic, and since it is evidently used, must be more specific. I think I know how the English language works. --Stemonitis 11:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care what you think, I want to see sources. Rex 13:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you're not going to read and consider my statements, then this discussion is never going to get anywhere. If you just spent the tiniest bit of effort in looking yourself, you would find the evidence you're looking for. Hell, it's even in the OED, for goodness' sake, so I think we can exclude your proviso of "poor English translations of German sites"; the single most authoritative source on the English language include "Rathaus" as an English word, and provides indisputable examples of its usage in reliable sources. That should have been one of your first ports of call; it would have saved us both a great deal of time and effort if you had. As a side-issue, "I don't care what you say" is not an attitude that should ever be taken in discussions on Wikipedia, even if you do disagree with another person's opinions. One must always be prepared to listen to others, and not simply reject what they say out of hand. --Stemonitis 14:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. Nor can it be found in the MW. My "I don't care what you think remark" was a responds to you own "I think I know how the English language works" remark. Which is not an attitude that should ever be taken in discussions on Wikipedia. You might think you know, I want sources. Rex 16:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You don't believe the OED!?!?! --Stemonitis 17:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the major dictionaries (including OED) and it ain't in it.Rex 18:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where you checked, but the OED contains the following:

Rathaus (raːthaʊs) Also Rath-haus, Rathhaus. [Ger., lit. council-house.] A German town hall. 1611 CORYAT Crudities 619, I..will make mention of their Prætorium or Senate house, which they commonly call the Rathausz [in Cologne]…

--Stemonitis 19:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure you have the right English edition. It's not in mine, nor in any online dictionary.Rex 19:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Try http://www.oed.com/. --Stemonitis 19:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are aware OED isn't a regular/normal dictionary? Rex 19:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is, by all account, the definitive record of the English language. There is no higher authority. It doesn't fit into your pocket, but it's no less "normal" for all that. See Oxford English Dictionary. --Stemonitis 19:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I meant, the OED is much like a database. It gathers just about every word found in English texts. So if one would right "The Vienna city hall, or Rathaus" rathaus gets a mention. Nevertheless just because it is in the OED, not in the regular OD or WM btw, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed. After all it means town hall and there are fully English and used alternative which should be used here , on the English wikipedia.Rex 20:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the OED records words which are used in English. "Rathaus" is used in English. You keep asserting the contrary, but it is evidently so. Our article on town halls should be at "town hall" or a similar title, but there is absolutely no reason not to have a disambiguation page at Rathaus for different buildings called "Rathaus" in English. Look through Category:Disambiguation; many, if not most, of the titles are not in English. --Stemonitis 05:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which doesn't matter! Because Rathaus means Town hall. OED says, literally that the writer in their source merely gives the German word. If an article has a good and accepted English title it should always be prefered over the foreign one. Simple. Rathaus will redirect to City and Town halls, (just like the German interwiki does) and if you make a list with German city and town halls then it fine, you can use Rathaus all you so desperately want. Rex 08:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:DAB and understand what disambiguation pages are for. --Stemonitis 09:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic. In many cases, this same word or phrase is the natural title of more than one article.". There is no "rathaus-building" in English. Hence no building(s) in the world are reffered to as the Rathaus in English. It a GERMAN term, GERMANS call their town halls rathauses, not the other way around. If you continue to believe that Rathaus somehow refers to specficly German town halls then make an article on German town halls. Rex 09:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The OED says we do use the word in English. There are articles with it in the title, and it is helpful to be able to disambiguate them. I don't know why you're conducting this campaign to rid the world of the word Rathaus, but it's not supportable. Translatability is not the key issue here. It's also not a question of writing an article; it's about disambiguation. The needs of the two are quite different. --Stemonitis 09:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, the word is simply in the OED. Like I said many times before it ISN'T in the MW or the OD, also, I dare to say 99.9% of all Anglophones has never heard let alone proncounced the word. As you claim it is already an "english" word translatability indeed isn't the issue here. It's clarity and (German) Town hall is WAY clearer than Rathaus.Rex 09:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have completely misunderstood the purpose of disambiguation. --Stemonitis 10:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No I think you're the one who doesn't understand disambiguation.Rex 11:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Rathaus" is not an unambiguous word, and can refer to many things (viz. several town halls in German-speaking areas). Since it is unclear which of the articles on Wikipedia a person will expect when they type in this ambiguous term, we provide them with a list of possibilities, which we call a disambiguation page. A general article on town halls is unlikely to be the most frequently expected item, although there's no reason why it shouldn't appear on the list. Buildings like the Rathaus, Vienna, Rathaus Schöneberg and Rotes Rathaus are more likely, and they go further up the list. That is how disambiguation works. Redirecting such users to city and town halls would not be helpful to them, and would violate the principle of least surprise by which disambiguation pages work. --Stemonitis 11:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is ridiculous. Vienna city hall (or City Hall (Vienna)) etc would be much better. Why the hell use German on the English wikipedia when English has the exact same terms? Honestly, if the French and Dutch can make English article titles why on earth is it so hard or Germans. ..Rex 14:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is a question to be asked at each of those articles, after careful thought, and not by trying to remove the disambiguation page. Oh, and you're getting dangerously close to racism, there; just tone it down a little, eh? And anyway, it's not true that all French and Dutch article titles are translated, because, critically, some places are more well known in their native language than they are in translation (Category:Buildings and structures in Paris, Category:Buildings and structures in Amsterdam, etc., etc., etc.). --Stemonitis 14:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm no where near racism. (When did Germans become a race of man btw?) I'm going you my observations. We do not need Rathaus as a title. If for some reason someone types Rathaus, he/she should be redirected to City and Town halls. Then they'll automatically get lists of town housed per country, state, region etc.Rex 14:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such list at city and town halls, nor should there be. Redirecting there would be confusing and pointless. Why can't this disambiguation page exist? Its being in a foreign language is no issue at all. Notre Dame is a disambiguation page, quite separate from Our Lady, even though the former can be translated as the latter. By asserting that Germans act differently (and worse) from other nationalities, you are making sweeping and almost certainly false generalisations; whether or not you consider them a race (or even whether you believe races of humans exist at all) is entirely irrelevant, and is futile semantic quibbling. Neither WP:UE nor any other policy mandates against having titles in foreign languages, especially of disambiguation pages which serve to distinguish other articles whose titles are in foreign languages. There is absolutely no reason for Rathaus not to exist in its current form. This discussion is now about sixteen times longer than the page itself, and you have come up with no reason to get rid of it. Indeed, there is no such reason. Please find something else to occupy your time. --Stemonitis 14:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course there are such lists/pages, with every reason to it. Category:City and town halls. And there is every reason for this article to be either moved or renamed. Notre Dame is a disambiguation page, Notre Dame (Paris) isn't. Logical as the notre dame is a world icon. I doubt the "Schöneberg Rathaus" has even a margin of it's fame. Or indeed any other town hall listed here. Schöneberg city hall is what's best as it gives direct information, and it's what an ANGLOPHONE (!!!!) would look for if he or she wanted information on the CITY HALL of Schöneberg. SIMPLE!Rex 14:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But this isn't an article like Notre Dame de Paris; this is a disambiguation page, like Notre Dame. Shouting "SIMPLE!" doesn't change anything, no matter how often you do it. You confuse categories with lists, and you mis-read my statement anyway, and you are still confusing the naming of individual articles with the needs of a disambiguation page. --Stemonitis 18:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No you are the one who 's confused. You see comparing notre dam and Rathaus is comparing apples and pears. If you want to make a comparison do Rathaus and Eglise or Kerk. OH OH BIG SURPRISE any the the German word has an article.Rex 20:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, the comparison is between Rathaus and Hôtel de Ville or Ratusz or Ayuntamiento or Câmara Municipal. Currently, the article on Municipio fails to mention that this Italian word, toghether with Palazzo Comunale, are the terms by which Italians generally refer to their city halls. The article on Municipalidad also omits this fact in relation to some Latin American countries.

For the case of Brazil, at this time there's no article on Prefeitura, and it is mentioned in the article on Prefecture instead. Creating "Prefeitura" as a redirect to that section of "Prefecture" wouldn't be wise, since the Portuguese word has the same polysemy as its English equivalent (cf. Prefeitura).

In the specific case of "Rathaus", this page is a simple disambiguation, which would have every right to exist even if there was no mention to the meaning of the word in German. However, the very short reference to the German meaning adds to the quality of the disambiguation, and, at least in my opinion, provides the reader with a better, deeper, broader perspective. - Best regards, Ev 05:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank for your input, Ev, and I'm glad to see you've found a good analogy with Hôtel de Ville. The others are less relevant, in my opinion, because they are descriptive articles rather than pure disambiguation pages. At least now we can say that there's a majority in favour of keeping the current Rathaus page. --Stemonitis 05:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to be of any help :-) I agree: those examples were ordered by relevance, with the first two as disambiguations and the rest as non-English equivalents having articles, to show that the German word is not a solitary exception. - Regards, Ev 08:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that there are more similar articles doesn't mean or prove anything. It just shows there are more articles with the same faults as this one. They all mean city hall, plain and simple. 08:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they all translate the same, but each serves a different disambiguation purpose, which is what is actually important here, as I've tried to make clear before. --Stemonitis 08:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No they don't. But since you're just stalling this discussion here. I'll have to solve this problem another way (but solved it will be) on the city and town hall article.Rex 10:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing you do anywhere else will reduce or remove the need for a disambiguation page here, and since you're the only one who sees a problem here, and that problem concerns the very existence of this page, I don't see how you can possibly "solve" it anywhere else. --Stemonitis 14:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just watch me.Rex 09:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary-only material IMO. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Related discussion

Now at Talk:Ratusz. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:46, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]