Talk:Ramón Iribarren/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 00:08, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:08, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed; I don't think the book cover layout rises to a level of originality that would be copyrightable. Footnote numbers refer to this version.

• FN 6 cites this; can you tell me what this is? Is it an offprint from a magazine?
• FN 10: if I understand this citation it's a conference paper? I think that should be apparent in the citation (the details of how you format it aren't important for GA). Researchgate is not in itself a reliable source so it needs to be clearer where this comes from.
• This is not a problem you have to fix, but FYI you don't have to cite the lead if you don't want to. Everything in the lead should be in the body, and cited there, so the only citations required in the lead are for direct quotations and controversial statements. You can leave it as it is, but I wanted to make sure you were aware it's optional. However, I see that a couple of the citations used in the last sentences of the lead (FNs 10, 11, 12, and 15) are not used in the body -- is that material properly covered in the body?
• "Iribarren identified that much port and harbour infrastructure design in Spain relied on ...": "identified" seems like a clumsy verb to use here. How about "realized"?
• "he initially studied at the San Luis school in his hometown": why is "San Luis" in italics? If you're doing this for Spanish terms, I think it's not generally necessary -- it's a name, not a Spanish language word. The same goes for "Instituto de Peñaflorida". And I don't think you have to give Spanish in the running text -- for example the Ministry of Public Works, or the Gipuzkoan Ports Group.
• "he left for Madrid to study exact science": is "exact science" really a subject one can study in Spain? I know it as a general term for a group of disciplines.
• The last sentence of the "Education and early work" section is unsourced.
• "they were met with opposition from the City Council and the breakwater works did not commence": suggest "they were met with opposition from the City Council, which declined to build the breakwater".
• "Meanwhile, Iribarren was approached by the French authorities": can you confirm that "meanwhile" is accurate? From the dates it appears that there was no overlap in the projects.
• "mined in The Province of the Sahara": I would suggest using the English name, "Spanish Sahara".
• The last sentence of the "The Port of Palma de Mallorca and the Wave Diagram Method" section's first paragraph is unsourced.
• "For breakwater slopes steeper than 1:2, the formulae of Hudson and Iribarren produce similar results, but for more gentle slopes the Hudson formula deviates considerably and stability becomes infinite, which is invalid." If Iribarren's formula is accurate where Hudson's is not, I think we should explicitly say so.
• "fellow Spanish engineer Casto Nogales y Olano (1908-1985)": again no reason for the italics, and I don't think we need his dates inline. Is he worth a redlink?

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:15, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that. I've made some changes to the article based on the above (explanations below, my comments in italics).

• FN 6 cites this; can you tell me what this is? Is it an offprint from a magazine?

This is an extract from the 'Cosas de Alde Zaharra' magazine published by the Town Council in Hondarribia, edition 36. It's a publication on the life, history and current affairs of the Alde Zaharra area of the town. The author is a local historian. I've amended it accordingly.

• FN 10: if I understand this citation it's a conference paper? I think that should be apparent in the citation (the details of how you format it aren't important for GA). Researchgate is not in itself a reliable source so it needs to be clearer where this comes from.

Yes, conference paper (from International Symposium on Ocean Waves, Madrid 2005). I have amended the citation accordingly.

• This is not a problem you have to fix, but FYI you don't have to cite the lead if you don't want to. Everything in the lead should be in the body, and cited there, so the only citations required in the lead are for direct quotations and controversial statements. You can leave it as it is, but I wanted to make sure you were aware it's optional. However, I see that a couple of the citations used in the last sentences of the lead (FNs 10, 11, 12, and 15) are not used in the body -- is that material properly covered in the body?

Thanks, I think the material is covered in the body however I did re-use some of the citations in the body further to your comment, as they are relevant to some of them (for example, FN 10).

• "Iribarren identified that much port and harbour infrastructure design in Spain relied on ...": "identified" seems like a clumsy verb to use here. How about "realized"?

I have left this for now as he identifies this as an issue in his Obras Maritimas book, and uses the same verb (in Spanish). However, I am open to changing it if others think realised is better.

I think this usage is not very natural in English. In your reply you say "he identifies this as an issue"; that's the normal usage -- "identify X", with a direct object. Here we have "identify that X", with an indirect object. I can see that "identify" is the right verb for what you want to say. How about "In the 1930s, much port and harbour infrastructure design in Spain relied on simply replicating methods used on previous projects, with the guiding principles for the design of new harbour and coastal projects often relying solely on a simple analysis of whether previous construction methods had been successful or not. Iribarren was dissatisfied with such a wholly empirical approach, which he considered did not take into account the effects of location-specific issues such as wave and sediment behaviour, and having identified this as a problem, he spent a number of years ..."? This allows us to define the problem first and then say it was Iribarren who identified it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• "he initially studied at the San Luis school in his hometown": why is "San Luis" in italics? If you're doing this for Spanish terms, I think it's not generally necessary -- it's a name, not a Spanish language word. The same goes for "Instituto de Peñaflorida". And I don't think you have to give Spanish in the running text -- for example the Ministry of Public Works, or the Gipuzkoan Ports Group.

Noted and changed.

• "he left for Madrid to study exact science": is "exact science" really a subject one can study in Spain? I know it as a general term for a group of disciplines.

It was indeed, until at least the middle of the 20th century, a subject which can be studied at bachelor to doctorate level. There is actually a detailed history of the subject, and related subjects, here: [1] (UCM Madrid, evolution of the degree in mathematics), featuring a number of notable scientists with the degree in exact sciences.

• The last sentence of the "Education and early work" section is unsourced.

Noted & sourced.

• "they were met with opposition from the City Council and the breakwater works did not commence": suggest "they were met with opposition from the City Council, which declined to build the breakwater".

I was not sure about whether to change this one. The opposition was from one or two councillors, which delayed and frustrated the construction. They didn't so much decline to build it as leave it on the long finger.

I think the point is not that they didn't start building it, but that it wasn't approveod -- after all, approved projects can fail to be executed. How about " they were met with opposition from the City Council and the project was not approved"? That doesn't say they actively turned it down. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• "Meanwhile, Iribarren was approached by the French authorities": can you confirm that "meanwhile" is accurate? From the dates it appears that there was no overlap in the projects.

I think meanwhile is correct, although there is a gap between construction of the projects, the long design period meant that they definitely overlapped.

• "mined in The Province of the Sahara": I would suggest using the English name, "Spanish Sahara".

Noted and changed.

• The last sentence of the "The Port of Palma de Mallorca and the Wave Diagram Method" section's first paragraph is unsourced.

Noted and source applied.

• "For breakwater slopes steeper than 1:2, the formulae of Hudson and Iribarren produce similar results, but for more gentle slopes the Hudson formula deviates considerably and stability becomes infinite, which is invalid." If Iribarren's formula is accurate where Hudson's is not, I think we should explicitly say so.

Noted and changed.

• "fellow Spanish engineer Casto Nogales y Olano (1908-1985)": again no reason for the italics, and I don't think we need his dates inline. Is he worth a redlink?

I removed the italics, but left the dates. Although again, I've no issue with removing them if people think it is better. D McParland (talk) 14:31, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

One more point:

• The paragraph starting "Iribarren identified that much port and harbour infrastructure design in Spain relied on simply replicating methods" (which I've made a suggestion about rewording above) is in the lead, but this overview statement -- that he identified this problem -- is not explicitly in the body.

FYI, it's acceptable to reply by interspersing comments in the bullet point of issues. It's fine to reply as you've done, but it's a lot easier for you to thread your replies under the bullets, so that's what most nominators do. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I've made some further changes based on your suggestions. On your additional point, I've added a sentence at the start of the second paragraph under the heading The Port of Palma and the Wave Diagram Method. D McParland (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, the only thing left is for me to spotcheck a few sources. Footnote numbers refer to this version.

• FN 16 cites "he left for Madrid to study exact science, but changed his course in 1921 and began studying civil engineering, graduating in 1927 as the best-placed student on the course". Verified.
• FN 20 cites "Iribarren undertook extensive research at the Port of Mutriku, where he was responsible for the design and construction of a breakwater to the outer harbour in 1932." I don't speak Spanish; can you point to the page that covers this? Then I can drop the text in Google translate to check it.
• FN 45 cites "A bronze bust of Iribarren by the Spanish sculptor José Pérez Pérez "Peresejo" [es] stands at the location of the Bidasoa works, erected there in 1969." The source link is broken.
• FN 36 cites "He presented his research to the Beach Erosion Board of the United States Army Corps of Engineers, a body which subsequently translated and published much of the research work Iribarren undertook with his long-term collaborator and fellow Spanish engineer Casto Nogales y Olano (1908-1985)". The translation was made by the Waterways Experiment Station in Vicksburg, according to the footnote on page 1; is that a sub-organization of the Beach Erosion Board? I would doubt it, so for accuracy I would either drop "translated and" or mention the translator as well.
• FN 13 cites "including contemporary design methods such as the Van der Meer formula, which expands Iribarren's methods to include allowance for irregular waves and the influence of storm duration". I don't have access to this source. I would guess this isn't a matter of just quoting a short passage that supports this, so can you just confirm that this explicitly credits Iribarren's methods as a predecessor to the Van der Meer formula?
• FN 32 cites "Iribarren developed a formula for the stability of breakwater slopes under wave attack in 1938." I'm going to mark this as verified; I don't have access to the source but the title seems to cover it.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

FN20: That's a good point, the reference I have used is a paper discussing his theoretical work developed at Mutriku, and his application of it on a separate project in Palma de Mallorca, but he doesn't explicitly mention Mutriku by name in it. A better source is FN4, Pacheco's paper. I have added that to the sentence. In this paper, his work at Mutriku in 1932 is mentioned specifically (the Castillian Spanish version of the name - Motrico - is used, but I stuck with the Basque Mutriku as that is generally what it is referred to in most English sources, and also what Wikipedia uses). In Pacheco's paper you will see, under section 3 "Las olas del destino" (EN: the waves of destiny), the following text in the second paragraph:

Resultado directo de esta experiencia fueron sus primeros tra-bajos, entre los que cabe destacar la rampa rompeolas del puerto de Motrico (1932), que le permitió formular dos de sus piezas más conocidas: Método de los Planos de Oleaje y Cálculo de las Oscilaciones de Resaca, aplicados en toda España desde 1934.

Translation:

A direct outcome of this experience was his initial work, which included the breakwater ramp of Motrico port (1932). This project allowed him to develop two of his most well-known contributions: the Wave Plane Method and the Calculation of Undertow Oscillations, both of which have been applied throughout Spain since 1934.

Mutriku/Motrico is also mentioned in a few of the other sources, including FN16 from the Spanish Royal Academy of History. Paragraph 5: 'Entre sus primeros trabajos cabe destacar la rampa rompeolas del puerto de Motrico (1932)'. Translation: Among his early works, it is worth highlighting the breakwater ramp of the Motrico port (1932).

FN45: Noted, the link is dead. I will try and find another, no luck so far but hopefully a suitable one will pop up. I actually saved a local copy of the document the link referred to, its a PDF, but I doubt if copyright restrictions allow me to upload it on Commons etc. The sculpture is visible on google maps also, but I doubt if that is a suitable citation.

FN36: The Beach Erosion Board (1930 - 1963) was a seven-member technical board organised under the Federal Government's War Department (now the Department of Defense), U.S. Army, and was a part of the civil works program of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. The board entered into contractual arrangements with the U.S. Army Engineer Waterways Experiment Station in Vicksburg, but was not a sub-organisation of it. The Board organised for the translation to be undertaken, through Richard Eaton. The actual translation from Spanish to English of the paper was done for the Board by the University of California, Berkeley. Source for this is Quinn's history of the Beach Erosion Board (M.L. Quinn{1977}, p.70), "A case in point was the work of Ramon Iribarren Cavanilles. Several papers written by this prominent Spanish coastal engineer were obtained through the efforts of Richard O. Eaton, with the actual translation made at the University of California, Berkeley". I have added Quinn's work as a source to the article at the relevant sentence.

FN13: Yes, pages 92-103 of the source (d'Angremond & van Roode) gives a rather detailed account of this in e.g. section 7.1.2 on page 92, section title "Iribarren"; section 7.1.3 on page 95, section title "Hudson & van der Meer", and section 7.1.4 on pages 96-103 inclusive, section title "modern stability formulas". I've also added van der Meer's thesis (FN14) in which he developed his formula and cited Iribarren's work repeatedly, and Jurjen Battjes' 1974 paper (FN8) to this sentence. D McParland (talk) 22:39, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Update - FN45 (now FN46 in current version) - the link was archived at the Wayback Machine on 6th December 2022, I have added the link to the FN. D McParland (talk) 22:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

The changes look good; passing. Congratulations! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:55, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, and thanks for your time reviewing. D McParland (talk) 08:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)