Talk:Ralph Munroe

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Editing dispute - yacht New Dawn

An editor, 81.145.148.185, has made an edit adding a yacht, New Dawn, to the list of yachts designed by Ralph Munroe. I reverted that edit and 81.145.148.185 put the edit back. We have discussed this on 81.145.148.185's talk page. Would a third party care to offer their opinion so we can achieve consensus? GroveGuy (talk) 20:58, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As the editor who made the addition I would like to add the following. New Dawn is a 38' presto built to a set of lines produced by Munroe. Not only is there is no reason why New Dawn shouldn't be in the section 'Proas and yachts designed by Ralph Middleton Munroe' but the list is obviously incomplete without her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.148.185 (talk) 10:41, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion on the talk page:

Welcome to Wikipedia. I notice your first edit was to add a yacht to the list designed by Ralph Munroe. I searched for mention of this yacht and its builder and couldn't find anything. As you say it was built in 1981 that is fifty years after Munroe died. Unless you can provide a citation for your edit I will continue to revert it. GroveGuy (talk) 22:18, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New Dawn is a 38' presto started in late '74 and launched in 81. The builder / owner came across Henry Howard's book Alice after sailing across to Miami some years previously and became interested in Munroe's designs. She is well proven having crossed the Atlantic twice (there and back) on a tour of the Caribbean back in the late '90's. A beautiful and much admired boat she was designed by Muroe and so should be on the list. I will therefore continue to add her. Michael

That's nice that someone admires Munroe enough to make a copy of one of his designs. I suggest you make a blog about this. But it doesn't belong in Wikipedia. GroveGuy (talk) 10:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A yacht designed by Munroe doesn't belong in the section titled 'Proas and yachts designed by Ralph Middleton Munroe'? Got to disagree with you there so New Dawn is where she belongs. Michael

Let's move this discussion to the talk page for Ralph Munroe so we can get a consensus. GroveGuy (talk) 21:01, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request:

It might be better to get input from someone knowledge about the subject, but as a neutral party having read the discussion here I will share the following thoughts.

1) It seems to me that every other item on this currently list is supported by at least one cited source? If that's correct, then New Dawn should not be added without a citation to support its status as a Munroe design. 2) If this is a direct implementation or at least an exact copycat of a Munroe design, but is less directly connected to Munroe then all the other specimens, it should still be on the list. But there should be a footnote regarding it's unique status as less directly connected to Munroe. 3) If it is simply a design inspired by Munroe's designs, but not actually a direct implementation of his design, I'm inclined to say it does NOT belong on this list, but there might be room for further debate. If such inspiration is a rare occurrence and the Henry Howard is a notable designer in his own right, then maybe a case for inclusion, with a footnote, could still be made.> Brian Z (talk) 16:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1) All the boats on the list are either mentioned in The Commodore's Story or Lloyds.Without a citation we only have Michael's assertation that New Dawn even exists. 2) Henry Howard was the owner of Alice. He wrote a book that was published in 1926 and reprinted in 1946 called "The Yacht Alice" that included plans for the yacht. Michael says he built the boat from these plans. Without citations we can't know how close a copy it was. 3) Without a marine survey we can't know how close a copy New Dawn is to Alice. Alice was the subject of an article in The National Geographic Magazine for March 1938. In what magazine is New Dawn described? GroveGuy (talk) 23:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can we agree that Munroe devised the Presto so if New Dawn is a Presto then she should be in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.148.185 (talk) 16:27, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]