Talk:Railway war memorials in the United Kingdom

Some examples of memorials

• SOUTH EASTERN AND CHATHAM RAILWAY - South Eastern and Chatham Railway - see Dover Marine War Memorial
• LONDON, BRIGHTON AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY - London, Brighton and South Coast Railway, but note that there is also the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway War Memorial at London Bridge (see here). Possibly removed here from Victoria? (Or duplicated?) [UPDATE: London Victoria has two war memorials, see here and here, and the site is being redeveloped so some relocation of memorials may have taken place.]

As pointed out here, "Lambert's Britain's Railways in Wartime (published by Historic England) [...] has a gazetteer of memorials at the back" - see here. Carcharoth (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

More examples (some already in article; WWI name totals in square brackets, WW2 less easy to define):

• York (North Eastern Railway War Memorial) [2236]
• Derby (Midland Railway War Memorial) [2833]
• Sheffield (Great Central Railway) [1304]
• London Waterloo (Victory Arch, Waterloo station, [1]) [585]
• London Euston (London and North Western Railway War Memorial) [3719]
• London Paddington (Great Western Railway War Memorial) [2524]
• London Victoria (London, Brighton and South Coast Railway and South Eastern and Chatham Railway) [530] [556]
• London Bridge (London, Brighton and South Coast Railway War Memorial) [530* - 'duplicate']
• London Liverpool Street (Great Eastern Railway War Memorial) [1220]
• London Kings Cross (Great Northern Railway) [938]
• London Broad Street (North London Railway, since relocated via Richmond to Hoxton railway station) [64]
• Dover (Dover Marine War Memorial) [556* - 'duplicate']
• Manchester (Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway - images) [1460]
• Belfast (Great Northern Railway (Ireland)) - see also Great Northern Railway (Ireland); some interesting aspects of partition come into play here - for Irish memorials, see Irish War Memorials, such as their entry for this memorial and the one below from Dublin.) [87]
• Dublin (Midland and Great Western Railway) - see Midland Great Western Railway [49]
• Dublin (Heuston Station Great War Memorial - see Great Southern and Western Railway [97]

List to be expanded (see section below). Carcharoth (talk) 09:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC) Last updated: Carcharoth (talk) 11:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Carcharoth, there's a very modern one in St Pancras, Crewe, and I'm sure there's one at Edinburgh Waverley. There are quite a few more obviously. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, quite a few! The Manchester one (which I just added) has 1460 names, which is among the larger ones I think (in terms of names)? Edinburgh one is here, for the North British Railway [775 names]. Glasgow and South Western Railway is here [303 names], and the WW2 memorial (in the same train station) is a separate one here. It is really difficult to know where to draw the line. Some of the smaller ones have sculptural elements, such as the Metropolitan Railway [138 names] one I pointed out earlier, unveiled by Clarendon Hyde, but that is probably still too 'small'. Another 'small' one we have a photo of is 'just' a wooden board at Aberdeen [93 names]. Haig unveiled lots of memorials. Anyway, let's see what seems sensible. Carcharoth (talk) 11:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

"Has an article" might have to be the line to draw (which would necessitate starting a few for the notable red links but I planned to get to them eventually) but we can see where we get to. Manchester's is definitely notable. We could add Lambert's gazetteer to a further reading section for the full list. Btw, I got my copy on Amazon Marketplace for a lot less than the £50 RRP. It's well worth a read. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I will look out for a cheap copy! I think there is scope for a list, but maybe it will have to be separate (like I did for the Tower Hill memorial ships list). Carcharoth (talk) 12:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Added some name totals in square brackets above. While the numbers have to be handled sensitively, having the numbers there does give an idea of the differences. I hadn't realised that there were so many names on the LNWR memorial at Euston. Is there a source that would confirm that this is the most number of names on a WWI British railway war memorial? It is a significant proportion of the 18,000 to 21,000 figure given in various places. If you add up the ones above 500 in the lists above, you get a total of 17,905 (some are duplicates). If you add the 775 (Edinburgh) and the 303 (Glasgow), you start to get close to 19,000. Do any of the sources address this and give any idea of how much duplication there is (both with some railway companies putting up near-identical copies at different stations, and with maybe some people appearing on more than one memorial if they worked for more than one of the companies)? Are most of the major railway memorials now listed above? Carcharoth (talk) 22:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Based on the railway company listings in the remembrance book published for the 1919 remembrance service, there are two more major memorials, the one to the Caledonian Railway here [704 names] and the one to the Underground Electric Railways of London here [1514 names], which was originally unveiled in 1925 but has since been relocated (see here for a photo in its current location, and here, here and here for the memorial in its previous [original?] location at an earlier point in the history of 55 Broadway). Will add to the list below. I think all the remaining ones in various sources (e.g. Lambert) are all 'smaller' than the ones identified so far. Carcharoth (talk) 20:34, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

List (scope and format)

I am considering a list of railway war memorials. Obvious criteria for scope and format include a section for Boer war memorials, and any separate WW2 memorials (with most WW2 ones being additions to WWI memorials), and a section for miscellanous others. Should the list be part of this article or separate (or a partial list linking to a fuller list)? Some of the more notable memorials could have architects and sculptors identified, plus details of unveiling and any later rededicatons. Nearly all will have photos (though some are lost or have been redeveloped/re-sited). The names of the railway companies is another column, plus 'type' (i.e. sculpture, building, roll of honour) and location. Are there existing lists out there that could be used as a model (and to copy wikicode from)? (I'll continue to add to the list above of examples of memorials that would be most suitable for initial inclusion.) Carcharoth (talk) 09:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Carcharoth, This was my thought as well, I just haven't got round to it yet. The article isn't even half finished. I just wanted to start something that will eventually draw together all the articles on individual memorials. My thought was that most of the memorials that contain some sculptural or architectural element are probably notable, especially if they're listed, and should be in a list in this article. I'm less sure about how or whether to list all the smaller rolls of honour etc, considering there are over 400 railway memorials. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Like you I hate fiddling with wikicode for lists, but if something gets set up (I might try something soon), shall we add to it, or do you want to discuss a bit more? Agree on the need to limit the scope. The ones I've listed above are the major ones, with some that probably shouldn't be there despite the interesting history (e.g. the Hoxton one). Am completely stumped by why the London Victoria and London Bridge ones are so similar. I may try and see when I last photographed the 'west' one at London Victoria. Carcharoth (talk) 11:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Carcharoth, I'm not fussed what the scope is as long as it's consistent and fairly obvious. By all means make a start if you feel like it. I believe the LBSCR created three (almost?) identical memorials at London Bridge, Victoria, and Brighton. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:54, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. That makes sense. The Brighton one is here. Carcharoth (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Draft list

Name	Railway company	Image	Location	War(s) commemorated	Date unveiled	Type	Notes
London and North Western Railway War Memorial	London and North Western Railway		London Euston	First World War	21 October 1921	Monument	Architect: Reginald Wynn Owen Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Midland Railway War Memorial	Midland Railway		Derby	First World War	15 December 1921	Monument	Architect: Edwin Lutyens Unveiled by: Charles Booth
Great Western Railway War Memorial	Great Western Railway		London Paddington	First World War	11 November 1922	Statue	Architect: Thomas S. Tait Sculptor: Charles Sargeant Jagger Unveiled by: Viscount Churchill
North Eastern Railway War Memorial	North Eastern Railway		York	First World War	14 June 1924	Monument	Architect: Edwin Lutyens Unveiled by: Herbert Plumer
Underground Electric Railways Company of London War Memorial	Underground Electric Railways Company of London	not on public display image after unveiling	Westminster	First World War	10 June 1925	Statue and panels	Unveiled by: William Robertson
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway War Memorial	Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway		Manchester	First World War	14 February 1922	Wall tablet	Architect: Henry Shelmerdine Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Great Central Railway War Memorial	Great Central Railway		Sheffield	First World War	9 August 1922	Monument	Architect: Thomas Edward Collcutt Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Great Eastern Railway War Memorial	Great Eastern Railway		London Liverpool Street	First World War	22 June 1922	Wall tablet	Construction: Farmer & Brindley Unveiled by: Henry Wilson
Great Northern Railway War Memorial	Great Northern Railway		London Kings Cross	First World War	10 June 1920	Wall tablet	Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
North British Railway War Memorial	North British Railway		Edinburgh	First World War	12 March 1922	Wall tablet	Construction: Charles Henshaw Unveiled by: Duke of Buccleuch
Caledonian Railway War Memorial	Caledonian Railway		Glasgow	First World War	15 November 1921	Wall tablet	Unveiled by: Francis Davies
London and South Western Railway War Memorial	London and South Western Railway		London Waterloo	First World War	21 March 1922	Arch	Architect: James Robb Scott Unveiled by: Queen Mary
Dover Marine War Memorial	South Eastern and Chatham Railway		Dover	First World War	28 October 1922	Statue	Sculptor: W. C. H. King Unveiled by: Cosmo Bonsor
London, Brighton and South Coast Railway War Memorial	London, Brighton and South Coast Railway		London Bridge station	First World War	5 October 1921	Wall tablet	Unveiled by: Charles Colin Macrae
Glasgow and South Western Railway War Memorial	Glasgow and South Western Railway		Ayr	First World War	17 February 1922	Wall tablet	Designer: Robert Lorimer Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Metropolitan Railway War Memorial	Metropolitan Railway		Baker Street tube station	First World War	11 November 1920	Wall tablet	Designer: Charles W. Clark Unveiled by: Clarendon Hyde

Initial attempt at a draft list, with 14 16 memorials. Columns to be added include architects/sculptors and those present at the unveilings. Not sure how to handle the WW2 commemorations, so left those out for now. Carcharoth (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2021 (UTC) UPDATED: Carcharoth (talk) 20:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Carcharoth, That looks really good. Thank you for putting that together. I'd be inclined to remove the conflict column and put the list in the WWI section in the article, and we could have a dedicated column for the architect/sculptor/artist. If there are enough memorials from other conflicts for a table, we can put them in the relevant sections. Of those in the table that don't have an article, I suspect all are notable enough to sustain one (as is the NLR), with the possible exception of the UERL, which wasn't displayed publicly, so our inclusion criteria could reasonably be that a memorial has an existing article; we'd just have to create some articles as this one developed. I'll have a look and see if there are any more we should include. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:27, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Not so sure if they can all sustain articles (but the one at London, Brighton and South Coast Railway War Memorial does now at least have three photos). The UERL one had an associated memorial service in Westminster before its unveiling. I like what they did at Stoke-on-Trent railway station, where an archway memorial was erected (the names are at the bottom of the two columns), though it appears impossible to photograph it without modern railway furniture intruding. I have some extra notes here (essentially surveying the 'smaller' memorials with less names on them, from around 50-200), and I was quite surprised to come across the memorial for the Railway Clearing House (and the concept of a railway clearing house which I was not familiar with) which also wasn't on public display (it was in a recreation room) and sadly is lost, but photos still exist apparently. There were quite a few rolls of honours (by which I mean the lists that include those who served and returned), lots from the GWR in particular. That feels both relevant but also out-of-scope, but would be nice to mention some of these in the article even if they are not in the list (I might try and see what sources are best, unless they are already mentioned in the sources you have). Some of the memorials have had quite a journey. The Hull and Barnsley one went from a railway bridge to a nearby police station to the Hull Archaeology and Transport Museum, to being in storage and is now in the Streetlife Museum of Transport. Sadly, Iridescent's photos from that museum didn't include the memorial! :-) Talking of photos, have a look at the Commons category as quite a few photos added or organised since by me (mostly from Geograph). I do think some mention is needed of the Scottish railway companies (we can easily cover the biggest 5 - the three above and then mention Inverness and Aberdeen) and the Irish ones (again, about 4-5 main companies). Wales is a bit tricker. Only seem to be one or two there, and mostly rolls of honour. I have no idea whether the Cheshire Lines Committee erected a memorial, or whether as a 'joint' railway company their fallen employees were included on one of the larger memorials? Do your sources say anything on this? Carcharoth (talk) 15:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I can't find any evidence of a CLC memorial. I've scoured Lambert's gazetteer and the indexes of all the other books I have on railways in WWI and the CLC only gets the briefest of passing mentions in one of them. A few smaller joint lines erected their own memorial but not many, so I would guess that you're right and they were included on one of the parent companies' memorials. I agree that the Scottish memorials should be mentioned in the text as the article develops. The Highland and North British are both mentioned in Lambert, as are memorials for a couple of small Welsh lines (Barry and Ffestiniog), and a couple in Belfast. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

North London Railway Memorial

Comprehensive history here of this memorial for the North London Railway. Carcharoth (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Carcharoth, I came across that while researching the LNWR memorial, though I doubt it would qualify as a reliable source. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Great Central Railway War Memorial

Another account here of the history of this memorial. Carcharoth (talk) 03:33, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Rail Industry Memorial

It covers both peacetime and wartime, but maybe the Rail Industry Memorial (front image, rear image - there are also six badges of rail companies on the ends of the memorial, see the other photos on Commons) at the National Memorial Arboretum, which was dedicated on 22 May 2012, should be mentioned? Carcharoth (talk) 11:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Tramways

While researching another aspect of memorials, I came across the 'Manchester Corporation Tramways' memorials:

• Manchester Corporation Tramways - WW1 (2 - Hyde Road Depot) (310 names)

Apparently, this is "One of five similar cast bronze plaques erected at tram depots around the city". It looks like they were identical.

Anyway, the reason I have posted here three years later is that if you search the IWM memorials register for "tramway" you get records for some 62 memorials for or mentioning tramways around the country, though only the first few pages are actual tramway companies. There was also a 'Tramways' battalion apparently. The wider category would be "transport workers memorial". "Tram Depot", "Hendon Bus Garage" (now next to the Finchley War Memorial after the bus garage was demolished), and even a Tramdrivers Memorial Window, and Larkfield Bus Depot Workers (which may be lost).

I think 'tramways' would count more as "buses" than trains, so while still a form of rail transport, would not really come under the 'railways' which had a clear structuring of large regional companies and set of memorials (as shown above). Searches for "bus depot" and "bus garage" also give examples. I have no doubt someone, somewhere has written about this. Carcharoth (talk) 02:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)