Talk:Rafael Moshe Kamhi

Ethnic Macedonian Jews?

Official notice of Kamhi issued by the Bulgarian military authorities during the Second World War because of his contribution to the Bulgarian national idea in Macedonia, used to help him to obtain Bulgarian citizenship.

Official document issued by the Bulgarian authorities during the Second World War to Kamhi, which served as a guarantee to the German authorities, that prevented his sending to the Nazi concentration camps.

Please do not use unreliable, biased sources from Yugoslav Communist historiography. Do not revert reliably sourced clarifying content. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

The source which you used to attribute regional identity to Kamhi does not even mention Kamhi. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:16, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

The designation 'Macedonian' according to the late Ottoman ethnic terminology was an umbrella term, that included local Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks, Vlachs, Serbs and Jews. See: Entangled Histories of the Balkans - Volume Two, Roumen Daskalov, Diana Mishkova, BRILL, 2013, ISBN 9004261915, p. 503.

The IMARO activists saw the future autonomous Macedonia as a multinational polity, and did not pursue the self-determination of Macedonian Slavs as a separate ethnicity.Therefore, Macedonian (and also Adrianopolitan) was an umbrella term covering Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, Serbs, Jews, and so on. See: Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, Introduction. Jingiby (talk) 13:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

The ancient name 'Macedonia' disappeared during the period of Ottoman rule and was only restored in the nineteenth century, originally as a geographical term designating a vast territory between Salonica and Skopje. The question of the national identity of the local Slavs became relevant only in the second half of the 19th century when the Bulgarian national movement claimed all Slavic territories in the central Balkans. In the late 19th century the members of the Macedonian revolutionary movement expressed dual kind of identity: Bulgarian national and Macedonian regional. See: The Oxford Handbook of the History of Nationalism, John Breuilly, Oxford University Press, 2013, ISBN 0191644269, p. 192. Jingiby (talk) 13:53, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Presenting cherry picked sources that attribute only regional identity to Macedonians at the beginning of 20th century is not constructive. No doubt you know there are also many reliable sources that support existence of Macedonian ethnic identity since the end of 19th century. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:03, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Picked sources? What about The Oxford Handbook of the History of Nationalism from 2013? All sources above are Academic publications, much more reliable and specialized then provided by you Yugoslav communist propaganda tools. Jingiby (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

• During the 20th century, Slavo Macedonian national feeling has shifted. At the beginning of the 20th century, Slavic patriots in Macedonia felt a strong attachment to Macedonia as a multi-ethnic homeland. Most of these Macedonian Slavs also saw themselves as Bulgarians. By the middle of the 20th. century, however Macedonian patriots began to see Macedonian and Bulgarian loyalties as mutually exclusive. Regional Macedonian nationalism had become ethnic Macedonian nationalism... This transformation shows that the content of collective loyalties can shift.Region, Regional Identity and Regionalism in Southeastern Europe, Ethnologia Balkanica Series, Klaus Roth, Ulf Brunnbauer, LIT Verlag Münster, 2010, ISBN 3825813878, p. 127.
• Up until the early 20th century and beyond, the international community viewed Macedonians as regional variety of Bulgarians, i.e. Western Bulgarians. Nationalism and Territory: Constructing Group Identity in Southeastern Europe, Geographical perspectives on the human past : Europe: Current Events, George W. White, Rowman & Littlefield, 2000, ISBN 0847698092, p. 236.
• "Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia, perhaps a million and a half in all – had a Bulgarian national consciousness at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, VMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the WWII. Tito was determined that this should not happen. "The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1-85065-492-1, p. 67.
• "At the end of the WWI there were very few historians or ethnographers, who claimed that a separate Macedonian nation existed... Of those Slavs who had developed some sense of national identity, the majority probably considered themselves to be Bulgarians, although they were aware of differences between themselves and the inhabitants of Bulgaria... The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians.The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65-66.
• Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 193. ISBN 0-8014-8736-6. "The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. While Bulgarian was most common affiliation then, mistreatment by occupying Bulgarian troops during WWII cured most Macedonians from their pro-Bulgarian sympathies, leaving them embracing the new Macedonian identity promoted by the Tito regime after the war."
• Академик Иван Катарџиев, "Верувам во националниот имунитет на македонецот", интервjу, "Форум": "форум – Дали навистина Делчев се изјаснувал како Бугарин и зошто? Катарџиев – Ваквите прашања стојат. Сите наши луѓе се именувале како „Бугари“..."; also (in Macedonian; in English: "Academician Ivan Katardzhiev. I believe in Macedonian national immunity", July 22, 2000,issue 329, "Forum" magazine, interview: "Forum – Whether Gotse Delchev really identified himself as Bulgarian and why? Katardzhiev – Such questions exist. All our people named themselves as "Bulgarians"...")
• "Уште робуваме на старите поделби", Разговор со д-р Зоран Тодоровски, (in Macedonian; in English: "We are still in servitude to the old divisions", interview with PhD Zoran Todorovski, published on , 27. 06. 2005. Трибуна: Дел од јавноста и некои Ваши колеги историчари Ве обвинуваат дека промовирате зборник за човек (Тодор Александров) кој се чувствувал како Бугарин. Кој наш револуционерен деец му противречел на Александров по тоа прашање? Тодоровски - Речиси никој. Уште робуваме на поделбата на леви и десни. Во етничка, во национална смисла сите биле со исти сознанија, со иста свест. In English: Tribune: Part of the public and some from your fellow historians accuse you for promotining a collection for man (Todor Alexandrov) who felt himself as Bulgarian. Are there some of our revolutionary activist who opposed him on that issue? Todorovski - Almost none. We are still in servitude to the old divisions of left and right. Ethnically, in a national sense, they were all with the same sentiments, with the same consciousness.

Presenting cherry picked sources that attribute only regional identity to Macedonians at the beginning of 20th century is not constructive. No doubt you know there are also many reliable sources that support existence of Macedonian ethnic identity since the end of 19th century. I can't see any reason for this other than generating huge walls of text that will drive away any outside editors who would otherwise be willing to participate in the discussion. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Could you please, put those pictures above in the article. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 14:55, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Gees, why do you even think that a sentence like "He was proud of his X identity" has any place in an encyclopaedia?--Laveol ^T 14:59, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

• Are primary sources issued by the Bulgarian military authorities during the Second World War more reliable then Yugoslav communist historiography of Aaron Assa?
• Presenting cherry picked sources that attribute only regional identity to Macedonians at the beginning of 20th century is not constructive. No doubt you know there are also many reliable sources that support existence of Macedonian ethnic identity since the end of 19th century. I can't see any reason for this other than generating huge walls of text that will drive away any outside editors who would otherwise be willing to participate in the discussion.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:15, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Could you stop biased edits and POV-pushing?Jingiby (talk) 15:18, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

• Can you justify your accusation about my "biased edits and POV-pushing" with diffs?
• Is there any particular reason for you to avoid answering a simple question about WWII Bulgarian primary sources having advantage to "Yugoslav communist historiography" of Aaron Assa?
• Are you able to support your "regional Macedonian identity of Kamhi" position with any reliable source or not? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:55, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Biased edit means deletion of reliable source from the text and POV-pushing means to reject the academic consensus on the lack of ethnic Macedonian ethnic identity among the IMRO revolutionaries in the early 20th century and beyond. Full stop for now. Jingiby (talk) 16:08, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

• Is there any particular reason for you to avoid answering two simple questions: about WWII Bulgarian primary sources having advantage to "Yugoslav communist historiography" of Aaron Assa and if you are able to support your "regional Macedonian identity of Kamhi" position with any reliable source or not?
• If this is the only explanation of your accusation about my "biased edits and POV-pushing" then your accusations are unjustified. The source you added does not mention Kamhi at all. No doubt you know there are many reliable sources that support existence of Macedonian ethnic identity since the end of 19th century. The point here is that I did not attribute regional, ethnic or national identity to Kamhi. You did. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:21, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I would really like someone to address my question from above. Why exactly do you think this sentence belongs to the article? I will kindly remind you that this is an encyclopaedia, not a political pamphlet.--Laveol ^T 17:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

The answer is clear. Because it explains activities of this Jewish person. I noticed you are not very active on wikipedia. Has anybody invited you to this discussion?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

You are aware that this is not an invitation-driven process, right? Users are free to comment, no matter if they have been invited or not. And yes, the text was far from encyclopaedic. --Laveol ^T 10:52, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Invincible ignorance fallacy. I never said you are not free to comment here. I simply asked if anybody invited you to this discussion. Will you please be so kind to answer my question.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, you seem to be in rather a haste to remove other editors from an discussion you are in. Don't worry, I've taken worse in the years. I have noticed your edit-pattern though and it suggests a tendency to boast people's pride at being Macedonian. And yes, I do not like it, since it does not belong here. And yes, I do not need an invitation to try and calm down single-purpose editors. --Laveol ^T 11:36, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Again Invincible ignorance fallacy. I never said you need an invitation to comment here. I simply asked if anybody invited you to this discussion. Will you please be so kind to answer my question?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:53, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

New page tag

Would you like to remove the {New page} tag? There are nearly 70 years from the life of that man, which are empty for now. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 09:50, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Why should I removed it? If there are nearly 70 years from the life of that man then you actually explained why it should be here. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:15, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Who knows. You ate the author. Maybe you have another ides or plans. Jingiby (talk) 10:31, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Kamhi was born in 1870 in Bitola, then in the Ottoman Empire. He graduated from the Jewish school. As a young merchant, in 1894 he met Dame Gruev and became a member of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization. In 1896, he was the Bitola-delegat on the Thessaloniki Congress of the organization. During the renovation of the house of Kamhi-family on a proposal by Gruev there was made a special shelter for IMRO leaders, where the archive and the case of the organization were also kept. There were hidden in the coming years Gotse Delchev, Gyorche Petrov, Milan Matov, Pere Toshev, Boris Sarafov and others. Later it was discovered by the Ottoman authorities and Kamhi was arrested, but later he was released after paying a bribe. In 1901-1902 he participated in the "Miss Stone Affair." After the decision to rise the Ilinden Uprising, Kamhi became responding on the relations between the authorities in Bulgaria and the revolutionary organization. As a merchant he traveled offten, and that made him convenient for that purpose. By these special trips he met with a number of Bulgarian politicians, including Ferdinand I and the Crown Prince, later Bulgarian Tsar - Boris III. Along with these frequent visits to Bulgaria, some of which involved his brother, they both were suspected and arrested by the Ottoman authorities. Subsequently the brothers were interned in Debar. There they took part in the Ilinden Uprising in 1903. Later the brothers organized a campaign to raise funds to the victims of the uprising in the Jewish community in Macedonia. In 1905 Kamhi participated in the Rila Congress of IMRO.

After the subsequent split of the Organization, Kamhi maintained close links with left-wing activists of the Macedonian liberation movement as Gyorche Petrov and Dimo Hadzhidimov. He did not hide his dislike of the right wing activists. After the Balkan wars Bitola remained in Serbia and he moved to Xanthi, then part of Bulgaria. At the end of World War I he jojned the so-called Provisional representation of the former United Internal Revolutionary Organization. The Temporary representation advocated for autonomy of Macedonia as a part of a Balkan Federation. It threatened the autonomous Macedonia as state populated by different people as Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Vlahs, etc. Due to the threat of a second national disaster for Bulgaria, before the signing of the Treaty of Neuilly, he conducted in 1919 a meeting with the then Prime Minister Teodor Teodorov in Sofia. He was offered to move to Thessaloniki, where the headquarters of the Entente was locaded. He had to stand there wit aim to present the interests of Bulgaria to the victors in the war. With the permission of the French General Charpy, he settled and stayed to live in the city. It is said he continued to work unofficially for Bulgarian interests in the period between the two World wars, when living in Greece.

During World War II, after the occupation of Greece, Kamhi participated in the creation of Bulgarian Club in Thessaloniki. In 1943, Rafael Kamhi was arrested by the German occupying forces in the city and had to be sent to a concentration camp in Central Europe. With the support of the Macedonian Scientific Institute, Ilinden (Organization) and the advocacy of the President of the Union of Macedonian brotherhoods in Sofia, General Kosta Nikolov and the Bulgarian premier Bogdan Filov he was released. However his brother, who lived in Bitola, then annexed by Bulgaria, together with his relatives there, and all his relatives in German controlled Thessaloniki, were deported in Treblinka. One of the few survivors was his niece Rosa Kamhi, the daughter of his brother, that after the war married the Yugoslav General Benno Rouso.

After his rescuing Kamhi moved to Sofia, where he remained until 1949, when he moved to Israel. After the war, at the request of the Macedonian Scientific Institute and the Jewish Institute in Sofia, he began working on his memoirs, still in Bulgaria. From Tel Aviv he continued his correspondence with both Institutes in Sofia. He died in ripe old age in 1970 in Tel Aviv. All the memories of Rafael Kamhi are now kept in the Bulgarian State Archive in the so-called Jewish collection of books and documents. The collected memories of Rafael Kamhi were published under the title "I, the vojvoda Skender Bay" in 2000 in Sofia. In 2013, his memoirs were republished under the title "Rafael Kamhi: recollections of a Macedonian Jew revolutionary".

Are there some objecions the text above to be added to this aricle. Main source: Recollections of a Macedonian Jew revolutionary, Author Kamkhi, Rafael, Sofiia, Bulgaria, Bulgarian, ISBN 9786197086010, 2013, Publisher Sineva, compiler and introduction Tsocho Bilyarski Ph. D. Jingiby (talk) 12:04, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

• Will you please be so kind to explain why did you ask me to remove new page tag?
• Before I check details of the text you added I have one observation. The usage of the term Bulgarian after your intervention in this article is increased from 2 to 33.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:55, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I answered on the first question. I have no more comments on that. Jingiby (talk) 19:23, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

No you did not explain why did you ask me to remove new page tag.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:29, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Because I thought you have a plans to expand this article much more, and I waited on that expansion. I hoped after you would finish the article, you would remove this tag. Jingiby (talk) 06:05, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

That does not explain your request.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:20, 18 February 2014 (UTC)