Talk:Raï

Jewish influence

There has never been any evidence that Jewish quarters of Algiers were a centre for Rao music. Nor were any jews ever related to this form of music. Now that this genre has become popular, a lot of people are trying to associate themselves with its history though they can provide no evidence.--202.5.154.7 13:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted your change and provided a reference for the claim. Tuf-Kat 21:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Les juifs en Algérie ont beaucoup participé à la musique andalouse, une musique savante, mais aucunement au Rai. La musique andalouse a été amené en grande partie par des juifs, musulmans chassés de l'Espagne. Le Rai n'a pas été fait par cette partie d'algériens, mais par des bédouins. Il ne me semble pas qu'il y'a eu des juifs qui ont chanté el bedoui, parce que pour chanter El Bedoui faut faire partie du Bedw. Les juifs avaient un style particulier, qui est sympathique au passage, je pense à Salim Hilali, Lili Boniche, Lili Labassi, Maurice El Medioni, ... Et n'oublions pas que Maurice El Mediouni a été aidé par Belaoui Houari. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.252.38.146 (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The reason for the anti-Raï mood in Islamic countries

Can someone who is more into the matter explain why are fundamentalists so against this form of music. Please, I would really like to know more details (and things that can't find their way into the main article). --212.200.210.224 14:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

From what I have read (my Arabic is far too basic to be able to understand the lyrics), I would guess that the reason for a dislike of rai could have something to do with the bawdy lyrics. “Texts were often of a sexually suggestive nature” [Langlois 2006: grove music online]. The use of words and images that are considered as bordering on the obscene is often compared to American rap. Hope that's helpful.

I read Raï-Music by Rod Skilbeck, an article on the internet that states some benchmarks in the history of Rai music. From this article and from other sources in my community (Egypt) I would say that fundamentalists detest Rai and Rai-Musicians because they usually plant their lyrical themes around defying Muslim traditions. Further on, some fundamentalists in Algeria and the Middle-East in general detest Musicians in general, for they claim music and songs are not in accordance with Muslim teachings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.204.249.242 (talk)

Main instruments

Drum machine, sequencer and synthesiser? This might be true for some artists now, but surely not throughout its history? Totnesmartin 12:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Historically the original instruments were the gaspa (wooden, end-blown flute) and the guellal (single-headed cylindrical drum, usually made of pottery).

Women in Rai

"Traditionally sung by men, at the turn of the 20th century, female singers became common." This sentence is not quite accurate. Rai was originally a genre sung by women. (Please see ethnomusicological works by Virolle [Virolle, M. (2003) “Representations and Female Roles in the Raï Song.” in Magrini, T. ed. Music and Gender: Perspectives from the Mediterranean. Chicago: University pf Chicago Press], Morgan [Morgan, A. (2000) “Algeria – Raï: music under fire.” in World Music: The Rough Guide. Africa, Europe and the Middle East” ], McMurray & Swedenburg [McMurray, D., & Swedenburg, T. (1991) “Rai Tide Rising.” In Middle East Report, No. 169, Crossing the Line. (Mar. - Apr.)] and, Langlois [Langlois, T. (2006) “Algeria: Urban musics; Raï” in Grove Music Online ed. L. Macy (Accessed 04/12/06), <http://www.grovemusic.com>]...I'm sure there are more!!). It was during the 1960s when women were banned from performing in public that the genre was taken up by teenage boys (chebs). [McMurray & Swedenburg] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.41.120.251 (talk) 16:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

For extra interest: Cheikha Rimitti is generally refered to as the "mother of Rai" [Virolle, Morgan etc]

Rai in France

I understand that this form of music was brought to France via the *Mahgrebine* countries (Algeria, Morrocco and Tunisia) does anyone know anything more e.g. how it affected France etc. D. BULL 16:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Eurocentrism - unacceptable

"Oran is a seaport in Western Algeria, known since the Spanish invasion centuries ago" -

"known" to whom? The people who lived and worked in the port would have 'known' it a long time before the Spaniards turned up. I've changed it now. Totnesmartin 20:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Sexism

"Spanish troops kept women there to entertain the troops" Please explain further how the women were kept? This sentence makes them sound like cattle, did they force women to stay there? Or did they simply encourage soldiers to bring wives and girlfriends?

Inconsistancy

"Chaba Aicha is the only young >unmarried< woman to sing rai publicly today"
Followed by:
"Whenever she does appear on the cover of a cassette, she is always accompanied by >her husband< and is fully clothed."
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.112.32.4 (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would this Chaba Aicha even be mentioned in this article? I'm removing her. Sabertooth (talk) 06:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Other famous raï artists

• Aziz Bo Walam
• Chaba Zahouania
• Cheb Abdou
• Cheb Azzedine
• Cheb Hassen
• Cheb Kader
• Cheb Saidi
• Cheb Tarik
• Cheb Zhiri Younes
• Chebba Zahwania
• Mohammed Ray
• Mohamed Lamine
• Raïna Raï
• Chebba Zahouania
• Cheb Nasro
• Cheb Hassen
• Chebba Kheira
• Abdelhafid Douzi
• Cheb Abbas
• Cheb Zahouani
• Cheb Hanino
• Malik Adouane
• Tarik Lamirat
• Cheb Hakim
• Cheb Najim
• Cheb Aarab
• Cheb Lahbitri
• Cheb Rachid

Red links removed from article to talk because it not notable enough to have an article then not notable enough to be in list of notable artists (also, doesn't say why these are famous, and unsure is unambiguous to know which person is being referred to) RJFJR (talk) 15:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Further reading: removed

I removed

• van der Merwe, Peter. (1989). Origins of the Popular Style: The Antecedents of Twentieth-Century Popular Music. Oxford: Clarendon Press. ISBN 0-19-316121-4.

from the further reading as it does not appear to mention raï. Hyacinth (talk) 00:44, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup

Why, where, and how does this article need cleanup? Hyacinth (talk) 00:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

That tag was on there long before I got involved with this page, and even before I got my Wikipedia account. I did make a major copyedit of this page in September 2010, and I guess that could have registered as a cleanup. Are you suggesting that it doesn't need more cleanup? If so, then I can see why that would make sense. I do not have any specific areas to suggest improvement on, but help is always welcome. Thank you for your interest. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 04:31, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Per Template:Cleanup: "Because {{Cleanup}} is general, specific problems should be identified in the reason field; a more detailed explanation of what needs to be done can be provided on the article's talk page. An article's {{Cleanup}} template may be removed without the problem(s) being fixed if it is not possible to identify what needs to be cleaned-up." Hyacinth (talk) 05:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

With that reasoning supplied, I feel that my removal of that tag is appropriate, then. The tag was not specific, and the page has evolved and improved significantly since November 2006. Thanks for bringing that to attention. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 05:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Debate over Tunisia and Oudja edits

There has been a conflict of interest taking place on this page between two users. I want this solved soon so that the percentage of edits given to this edit-and-revert interaction, or lack thereof, does not increase any further. From what I've observed, neither editor has tried to discuss the changes, so I am creating a spot for such discussion. I hope it is used. When one user thinks what another user is doing on an article is not correct, they need to discuss and point out their own sides of the argument, all while maintaining peaceful relations; this can be done on a user talk page or a talk page relevant to the article. Even though I have not been involved with this pseudo-feud, I don't want to continue seeing these edits and doing nothing about it. So, what are your opinions? Should Tunisia and Oujda be kept, should one of them be kept, or should none of the be kept? Backtable ^{Speak to me}_{concerning my deeds.} 01:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, keep in mind that there is a three revert rule on Wikipedia, and I can tell that it has not been applied appropriately here. I do not know who is "wrong" or "right" in this disagreement, but I don't care; I'm not taking sides. I just want it to end and for this page to continue having as correct information as possible. Backtable ^{Speak to me}_{concerning my deeds.} 01:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The same user (82.101.238.14) keeps deleting the mention of Tunisia (where the music is extremely popular) while trying to insinuate that oujda had anything to do with the origin of Rai music, which frankly, is simply ludicrous. I don't know what else we're supposed to do when confronted with false claims that clearly degrade the quality of the article. Are we simply to pretend it's not happening and ignore it? You'll notice that he's been at it since 2009.

I think we should remove the mention of both morocco and tunisia from the mainstream popularity and replace them by "north African countries", maybe then, the spamming will stop; alternatively, we should semi-protect the page.

Thank you for sharing your input on the matter. I would not mind if the mainstream popularity area would be changed to "North African contries". If that is what can be deemed fit, then I will be fine with that. Also, the claim concerning Oujda as a place of origin for Raï should be sourced before it can be considered.

PS: I changed the topic title to something more concrete. Backtable ^{Speak to me}_{concerning my deeds.} 21:54, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the history of the article, I see that the same user (82.101.238.14) has already replaced the mention of north African countries by morocco, my gut feeling tells me that he will do it again and again. He seems to be a serial and persistent spammer.

Let's just make one thing clear here, oujda is not even in Algeria, it's in morocco, far away from where the rai music originated, so such ludicrous claim will never be substantiated, period. You'll notice (once again) that it's the same user (82.101.238.14) who introduced it in the article for god knows what reason.

Apart from undoing his spam and maybe protecting the page, I still don't see know what else can be done. Ifrenide (talk) 01:17, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, if this keeps up, I would consider a request to protect this page. I think that a warning should be sent to the anonymous user about his/her edits; I've done that this time, but the user should have been warned previously about this behavior. Also, since multiple users have not been advocating the anonymous user's edits, it can be possibly to deal with the user individually without having to protect this page. One avenue could be reporting this user instead of requesting to protect this page, since (s)he is the only individual behind the questionable edits. Backtable ^{Speak to me}_{concerning my deeds.} 05:02, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm always amazed by some people's stubbornness and inflexibility when it comes to such futilities.

1. Re popularity, the mention of Morocco apparently bothers the user but not France, where your average French person couldn't care less about Raï (or any other non-western Music for that matter) only Maghrebian immigrants listen to it therein. Let's not waste anybody's time, the only places on earth where Rai is mainstream popular is Western Algeria and Morocco (tons of cites to support that) and BTW North Africa includes Sudan and Egypt and you sure know people don't even know what Rai is over there. This is an encyclopedia and as such its goal is to accurately inform people and not be a platform for nationalistic boasting/sensitivities.
2. Re origin, well this is one huge useless debate and nobody can really know for sure. It certainly was in the Oran region (Oujda is part of it) but the whole Western-Algeria/Eastern Morocco region has the same culture so you can't really exclude Oujda. Music styles in that area are common both to Morocco and Algeria, I don't understand how and why you take offense at this when Oujda is just 1 or 2 km off the Algerian border.

P.S: I am not the IP who's been edit warring over this. --Tachfin (talk) 12:23, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The only stubbornness and in flexibility came from an anonymous user who kept deleting the mention of Tunisia (a country where Raï can be heard in every single corner) for no apparent reason, the consensus (read above) was to only mention north Africa instead. Let me remind you that France, being home to many Algerians has done its fair share of contribution to this musical style which also appreciated by the French lambda.

As far as Oujda is concerned, it may well be 2 km from the border of Algeria, it still is hundreds of kilometers from where the Raï music originated, which for the record is an area that does not stretch as far as Tlemcen, so in essence, trying to imply that it had anything to do with the origin of Raï by playing the geographical card is ludicrous at best.

In any case, I decided to replace north Africa by Maghreb in the hope of making everyone happy. __ Ifrenide (talk) 03:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, despite the invitation on his/her talk page, the anonymous user has notparticipated in this discussion. Backtable ^{Speak to me}_{concerning my deeds.} 07:11, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

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