Talk:RAF Coastal Command/Archive 1

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Untitled

I deleted this:

"The widespread introduction of sea-search radar enabled these planes to find their targets with greater ease, and soon the U-boats were being attacked throughout the Western Approaches."

H₂S (ASV) was never "widespread" in Coastal Command, given the demands of Bomber Command, which was largely incapable of hitting Essen on a dark night until 1944 when the Pathfinders appeared. (I don't exaggerate. Not much.) I rewrote some of the rest to reflect the real case more accurately. I'd del the Beau entire, by choice; I'm unaware of her being important. VLRs were crucial; a single squadron in Gander in 1940 could have cut losses to U-boats roughly in half (perhaps more; I'd have to do more research than the sources I have at hand permits.) (RAF had a solution in hand, but that could fall under "original research".) I can't date the introduction of 10 Squadron RCAF offhand; can somebody? To be clear, DF & air intercept was more important than radar & Ultra, despite the propaganda; radar was 3d in rank of importance. Sources? For starters, Deighton, Bomber; Saward, Bomber Harris; Harris' autobio/memoir; Bowen, Radar Days; van der Vat, Atlantic Campaign; Milner, North Atlantic Run; Middlebrook, Convoy; R V Jones, Most Secret War; Chalenge of War; Terraine, Right of the Line; Lyall, TWITA; Price, Aircraft v Submarine. There are others don't immediately come to mind. BTW, if you're wondering, this isn't my specialty; ask me about the Pacific subwar. It's just, Wikipedia coverage of air ASW is abysmal. I didn't even need to look this up. Trekphiler 22:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think so...!

You're joking, right? There's no listing of Coastal Command squadrons, & if I want to know which of these is, I should look at over 200 pages to find the handful I want? Surely there's a source with a narrower list...? (I just hope it's easier to find than anything on this list.) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 16:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

There will be if I have anything to do with it. Dapi89 (talk) 19:26, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Page dump

In its early days, other arms of the RAF had priority and Coastal Command had to make do with mostly obsolescent planes and weapons. Coastal Command had 224 aircraft and only 24 of these were modern types suitable for all its roles; these 24 were 12 Lockheed Hudsons and 12 Short Sunderlands. The remaining 200 were mostly aging Avro Ansons. Supplies of aircraft were so short, many units were on loan from the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm. The primary weapon was a small 100 lb anti-submarine (A/S) bomb which required perfect accuracy and did not have enough power to damage a U-boat. Another problem with this weapon was its tendency to skip off the water and in one case hit and destroyed the plane that dropped it. Early operations were mostly ineffective, often ending with the U-boat the victor on the occasions they could be found by the aircraft. Even upon finding a submarine the chances of scoring a hit were low because of flawed tactics. Aircraft were required to get on the stern of the U-boat and make a longitudinal 'along the track' attack. It took too long for the aircraft to get into position which gave the U-boat ample time to dive and change course. There were also 250 lb and 500 lb anti-submarine bombs; both still required high accuracy and could be carried only by the Sunderland flying boat.

In 1940, experiments were begun by the Admiralty on a 250 lb depth charge, modified to be dropped from the air, for use by Fleet Air Arm and later Coastal Command. After a successful series of tests, the antisubmarine bomb was replaced with the depth charge in 1941 but due to shortages, A/S bombs were not completely removed from service until 1942. (Somewhat later, an operations research group led by Professor Patrick M. S. Blackett discovered that setting the depth charges to explode at a shallow depth, rather than the earlier deep setting, improved success; this required the development of a new firing pistol capable of working so shallow.). In the same year, a number of newer aircraft being introduced into RAF Bomber Command allowed their older bomber designs to be sent to Coastal Command, including numbers of Vickers Wellingtons. These had much longer range, making them more effective. The introduction of the Leigh Light in 1942 allowed accurate night attacks, denying U-boats the freedom to recharge their batteries under cover of darkness. The Introduction of the de Havilland Mosquito freed the Bristol Beaufighter for Coastal Command use. The Beaufighter became one of their most effective short-range aircraft, operating with rockets and depth charges against U-boats in the Bay of Biscay. These planes were also used in attacks on other German shipping, even attacking the German flak boats.

Far more important to Coastal Command were the long range VLR Liberator and Short Sunderland. Wrangling with Bomber Command meant it was into 1942 before even a few dozen VLRs were released and much later still before a lonely squadron was posted to Gander Newfoundland, covering the crucial Atlantic choke point and the Mid-Atlantic gap, finally allowing Coastal Command to cover all of the North Atlantic. In the middle of 1942, 45 B-17 Fortress IIAs were transferred to the RAF. Because of the shortcomings of the Fortress I (B-17C), the RAF decided not to use the Fortress IIA (B-17E) as a daylight high-altitude bomber, the role for which it had been designed. The B-17s were transferred to the Coastal Command for anti-submarine patrol. By the start of 1943, the improvement in aircraft and tactics and the introduction of electronic aids such as centimetric radar vastly improved the effectiveness of the Command and as the U-Boat kill rate rose, shipping losses plummeted. It was not so much the number sunk as the constant harassment that made the planes effective (in conjunction with direction finding), as submarines were unable to approach to contact in daylight or run in on the surface at night to attack, meaning many convoys were unmolested.

Off target

Since Dapi89 appears determined to remove any clarify tags... What, exactly, does "improved the accuracy of the charge by heights up to 250 ft" mean? Use small words. Does that mean it can be dropped from 250ft? From within a range of heights of 250 ft? (Both seem to be implied.) That it will hit within 250 ft? That it will now hit 250 ft closer than before? (Which seems to be the intention, since accuracy was improved...) Or will now hit within 250 ft? (Which seems to be the most probable, since accuracy was improved...) And tell me how, exactly, no clarification is needed, since there are at least this many possible ways of reading it... Also, since "from point-blank range to 150 feet" is used as a standard of accuracy, it appears "drop within 250 ft" (as opposed to "heights" of anything) is the intended meaning. (Unless we accept "point blank" amounts to the aircraft dropping while right on the ocean's surface...) Of course, no clarification is actually in order... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 16:48 & 17:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

...Or was the improvement that it could be dropped from 250 ft higher altitude than before? Binksternet (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

On target

Just as determined to delete them as you are to add them Treky. And I disagree. "Point-blank" is used in the source so there is no need for clarification. But as you can't follow it and BN has joined the list of complainers, in the interests of cooperation, I'll sort sort it out for the LRs tomorrow. Dapi89 (talk) 21:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

2nd page dump

Coast Command's Order of Battle, 1939.

Coastal Command controlled many formations during WWII. At the start of the war it had four Groups, No. 17 Group, was the training group. The other three had responsibility for different sectors of the British coast. No. 16 Group was responsible for the eastern half of the English Channel and the southern half of the North Sea. No. 18 Group covered the remainder of the North Sea and areas to the north and west of Scotland, north of a line running north west from the Mull of Kintyre. No. 15 Group covered the remainder of the coast of the United Kingdom, principally the South West approaches.

In February 1941, this geographical arrangement was altered with the activation of No. 19 Group. The boundary between No. 18 Group and No. 15 Group was shifted north so that it ran along a line heading north west from Cape Wrath and No. 19 Group was made responsible for the southern part of the area formerly under No. 15 Group. In the Irish Sea No. 19 Groups's remit ran south of a line approximately in the middle of Cardigan Bay. In the eastern Atlantic, the boundary ran slightly north of that line.

Further important additions were made to Coastal Command's remit when squadrons based outside the UK were placed under its control. In November 1940, No. 200 Group at Gibraltar was transferred to Coastal Command, from that of RAF Mediterranean. Apart from a brief period under the operational command of Allied Forces Headquarters during Operation Torch and its aftermath, RAF units in Gibraltar remained under Coastal Command control for the rest of the war. No. 200 Group was raised from Group level to a Command within Coastal Command in December 1941 as RAF Gibraltar and remained a Command until reduced to Group level in 1953 as AHQ Gibraltar. With the British occupation of Iceland, RAF units were also based there and as their work was mainly ASW, Coastal Command again assumed control. At first, No. 30 Wing RAF was the formation controlling units in Iceland. In July 1941, No. 30 Wing was raised to Command status as RAF Iceland. The final addition to the clutch of overseas units controlled by Coastal Command was No. 247 Group RAF. In mid-1943, Portugal granted Britain basing rights in the Azores and ASW aircraft were duly sent there. As with Gibraltar and Iceland, Coastal Command was the controlling authority.

Four Coastal Command pilots received the Victoria Cross during the war. Flying Officer Kenneth Campbell, Flight Lieutenant David Hornell and Pilot Officer Lloyd Trigg were killed in action while Flight Lieutenant John Cruickshank survived. ---

After the Second World War Coastal Command continued in its anti-submarine role. The Avro Shackleton was a heavily modified Avro Lincoln bomber. With the introduction of nuclear powered submarines, newer planes needed to have considerably more electronics on board. In 1969 the special-purpose Hawker-Siddeley Nimrod, based on the de Havilland Comet airliner, was introduced into RAF service and Coastal Command duties were passed on to general squadrons. The Command ceased to exist on 28 November 1969, when it was subsumed into RAF Strike Command. Today there are three Nimrod squadrons based at RAF Kinloss, part of RAF Air Command.

U-388

Defo' the 1st sunk. The Americans (judging by the other article) are unable to confirm these kills. There is no doubt about U-388. Dapi89 (talk) 11:28, 24 July 2010 (UTC)