Talk:Rüstem Pasha/Archive 1

Archive 1

Two points

There are two points missing in this article:

• Aspersion about Rustem being sick of lepra. This is in a way an ironical story. His clothes were searched for louse. The presence of louse proved he didn't have lepra at all. So he was given the privilage of being sultan's son in law.The following anonymous verse is about this incident:

Olucak bir kişinin bahtı kavi talii yar

Biti dahi mahallinde anın işine yarar.

As an amateur translation: "If a man is lucky enough, even his louse serves him."

• His role in Şehzade Mustafa's execution. Being a backer of Hürrem Sultan, he took active part in the conspiracy against Mustafa. (Hürrem was not Mustafa's mother.) So Hürrem's son Selim became the heir.

Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:48, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Nedim you are right, I'm reading about him right now . Rustem is a very intriguing character and the longest reigning Grand Vizier I believe. This page is too small for such an important character. I will be back editing in some months. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 15:15, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

A question?

Howcome it says that Rustempasa Opackovic was a Croat from Bosnia and Herzegovina,but he was born in Skradin ,Croatia???It's contrdictory! Please change that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.129.112.165 (talk) 17:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

In Bosnia many Catholics and Orthodox too.

But Catholics in Bosna is called Croatian Orthodox is called Serbian Muslims called Boshniaks

But he was a Christ as Child, than later Muslim. He was no born Muslim. So he was a Catholic or Orthodox.

Dilek2 (talk) 15:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Skradin is in Croatia not in Bosnia Herzegovina. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.129.99.185 (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Rustem Pasa Hirvat Opukovic was a Croat

He was born in Skradin Croatia and by the way his name says Hirvat which in Turkish means Croat!!! this article in his current form is Bosnian Muslim propaganda.He was in charge of the Bosnian provinces that were a part of the Ottoman Empire,but that doesnt make him a Bosnian or whatever other then Croat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.129.99.185 (talk) 17:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Place of birth Skradin

By the way,when i look at the history of this article it alsways said that he was a Croat but was recently changed to this shamefull article by someone who uses Wikipedia for spreading propaganda.Rustem Pasa Opukovic Or Hirvat Pasa as called by the Turks themselfs had recently gotten more publicity from the turkish TVseries Suleyman the Magnificent so Bosnian Muslims would like to change history as it suits them.I can not allow that.

Now Serbs spread their lies.

Rustem's Political Career

I would just note that the section of this entry called "Political Career" lacks proper reference citations.

In particular, I would point out that this section attributes the executions of Grand Vizier Ibrahim and Prince-Sultan Mustafa to the manipulations of Suleyman's wife, Hurrem, in conspiracy with her son-in-law, Rustem Pasha. Although that has been Turkish lore for generations and was dramatized that way in the popular Turkish TV series "The Magnificent Century," there is little or no historic confirmation for such romantic speculation. A television series based on lore is no more valid as a historic reference source than is a movie about King Arthur or about Robin Hood or about the White Queen of Roses.

I mean, now really!

Truthfully, most of the mythical lore about Hurrem comes from the Ottomans' cultural tendency to blame others for the perceived misdeeds of their popular leaders and, also, from the fact that most of what is known about Hurrem comes from gossip reported by diplomats and ambassadors representing powers hostile to the Ottomans or from Mustafa-partisan writers, especially from among the ranks of the janissaries.

The fact is that today most respected historians doubt the notion that Hurrem held so much sway over Suleyman's life-and-death sentencing decisions. Although his wife certainly would have lobbied on behalf of her sons' rights of succession -- which was her prerogative, her duty, and her heartfelt preference under the Ottoman system as it was too for Prince Mustafa's mother, Mahidevran -- there's no reason to believe that Suleyman could be so gravely manipulated by her into executing his oldest friend, or his eldest son. Suleyman was no fool and did not exhibit foolishness in any other aspect of his rule. It's not very plausible that he would suddenly become a blind fool in this one area where the lives of people he personally cared about were concerned.

The name Suleyman translates into English as "Solomon" and this sultan took the sage meaning of his name literally. The Turks also called him "the Lawgiver" and he strove to be fair and just throughout his rule. He also saw his grip on power as something of a balancing act between the different contending power groups within the empire, which was also part of the sultan's sense of fairness and justice.

Suleyman executed his oldest friend Ibrahim Pasha because Ibrahim had hanged Iskander Celebi and had claimed Iskander's possessions to enrich himself without just cause. In other words, Ibrahim had used his office for corrupt purposes that included the murder of a respected nobleman. Naked corruption was always a hot button issue for Suleyman. He had executed his brother-in-law for as much shortly after the start of his sultanate; his sister never spoke to him again as a consequence. Ibrahim also began to sign documents with the royal-family-exclusive "sultan" post-nominal title attached to his name and would tell every foreign diplomat who would listen that he was the real power behind the throne. These things offended Suleyman's sense of what was just. Moreover, Suleyman originally had promoted Ibrahim to grand vizier to disrupt the entrenched establishment elites. Much of Ibrahim's behavior, capped by his outrageous order to execute Iskander Celebi, raised the pressure on the sultan from those power elites to nearly a breaking point. Thus, whether intentional or not, Ibrahim threatened Suleyman's grip on the reins of power.

Suleyman executed his eldest son Prince Mustafa because Mustafa had been making moves to put himself in position to depose Suleyman in the exact same way that Suleyman's own father, Selim I, had deposed Suleyman's grandfather, Bayezid II. The execution order came only when Suleyman realized that Prince Mustafa could actually pull it off, and that Prince Mustafa also had begun to allow the people around him to address him as "sultan" without the prefix "shehzade" (prince). More importantly, if Suleyman had not executed his son and had his body thrown outside his tent where the troops could see, it was quite probable that Suleyman would have been deposed in Mustafa's name whether or not the prince gave the order. Again, Prince Mustafa threatened Suleyman's grip on the reins of power.

In both cases, the decision to execute likely had little or nothing to do with Hurrem or Rustem's manipulations. Whether for good or for ill, no one today really knows for certain, but logic suggests that Suleyman ordered those executions for his own quite rational reasons.

Nor should the point be lost that only a few years later Suleyman also ordered the execution of Prince Bayezid, Hurrem's son. Just as Suleyman's father had arranged for him not to have other siblings to contend against for the throne, so did Suleyman arrange for Selim II not to have to contend against his brother for the throne.

Furthermore, it seems quite probable that Suleyman blamed the manipulations of Mahidevran, Prince-Sultan Mustafa's mother, for the circumstances requiring Mustafa's execution. As part of Suleyman's harem, Mahidevran had witnessed Selim I depose Bayezid II. Hurrem had not. Mahidevran knew how it had been done up close and personal. Suleyman left Mahidevran totally and deliberately destitute following Mustafa's demise until Hurrem's son Selim II became sultan and restored her to wealth with a generous pension for life. Such abandonment was not typical behavior for Suleyman and, thus, evidences his feelings toward her about the matter.

In any event, for something this opinionated to show up in a Wikipedia entry (regardless of how the tale was portrayed in a popular Turkish TV series), it needs to be well-sourced from reliable respected academic citations, perhaps in combination with well-cited opposing academic views, if any. And this section is not. Also, not all sources are created equal ... the great failing of the Wikipedia system is that it does not have knowledgeable editors who will in a timely fashion distinguish good sourcing from pure garbage.

~~Paul Maslak 30 November 2018