Talk:Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be)/Archives/2017

family motto "Che sarà, sarà"

The article states that the origin of the phrase is a "fictional" italian family motto from a movie. But the phrase has been known much earlier: Charles Dickens wrote (in "Hard Times", from 1854): "There's an English family with a charming Italian motto. What will be, will be.", and the Italian phrase has been quoted by e.g. Victor Hugo (Preface to "Cromwell"), or George A. Lawrence ("Guy Livingstone"). --mst 18:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"Che sarà, sarà" is the motto of the Russell family (Dukes of Bedford). --mst 18:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That is interesting, and it can perhaps be incorporated, keeping in mind that this article is specifically about the Livingston & Evans song itself, not about the phrase. The phrase is fictional in The Barefoot Contessa, the film with the motto which motivated Livingston's choice. — Athaenara ✉ 05:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, the phrase itself would then not be fictional. It's a real motto that has been used in a movie. Or would you call a movie song a fictional song? 212.144.131.60 22:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The "English family" mentioned by Dickens was that of Anne Boleyn, one of the wives of Henry VIII of England (though she adopted the motto "The most happy" when she was queen). I always thought that the ancient origin was old French. Dbfirs 22:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

'Che sarà, sarà', as far as I know, actually first appears in Dr. Faustus by Christopher Marlowe. Therefore the idiom 'que sera sera' most likely comes from an Italian idiom that Marlowe subsequently popularized in the anglo-world. Thus, 'que sera, sera' is just a Spanish translation of the idiom that Marlowe popularized in 1592. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.86.194.113 (talk) 02:52, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source for this, we might have something. Otherwise, it is speculation ("Thus...") based on supposition ("Therefore...most likely...") piled on top of limited knowledge ("...as far as I know..."). - SummerPhD (talk) 14:02, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The article (as last edited by me—and based on reliable sources) now states where the saying appeared prior to Marlowe. It also states flatly (and based on reliable sources) that there is no evidence of an "Italian idiom". The earliest documentations of the "Spanish" and "Italian" spellings (based on reliable sources) are contemporary with each other in the 16th century, and it is probably not feasible to say which one "came first". Livingston and Evans seem not to have been aware that the "Spanish" spelling was hundreds of years old, so their version may well be considered a "translation" from the "Italian"—not of Marlowe, but rather of Joseph L. Mankiewicz and his Barefoot Contessa. Kotabatubara (talk) 16:42, 3 December 2013 (UTC)