Talk:Pumpernickel

POV

I can't shake the feeling that whoever contributed the bulk of this entry is not terribly fond of pumpernickel. The fact is that many, many people like pumpernickel (as evidenced by the fact that it is produced in not insignificant amounts); Perhaps we could get some more German contributors to this article? We already know how the Americans and Brits like their foamy, spongy bread. Rhombus 17:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Some of the info in this article seems like opinion, I live in Ohio in the Midwest and buy Pumpernickel every other week, it is not a specialty or unusual, it's just there in the bakery seciont 75.6.26.37 01:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)Steve from Ohio.

Fartdemon?

"The word "pumpernickel" derives from the Old High German words "pumpern", to fart, and "Nickel", a demon or goblin." Somehow I find this hard to believe... 67.82.95.105 19:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed! Which is why I deleted the passage. If you check most etymology authorities (i.e., dictionaries) the word is listed as having unknown origins (see, for example, the Oxford English Dictionary) --128.151.144.59 14:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

None of this etymology business seems to have verification...here's what OED says:

[G., also {dag}pompernickel (in use 1663); also (earlier) a lout, a booby. Origin uncertain.]  Folk etymologies should be left out, unless you can cite references.

Carl.bunderson 17:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

In The Language Instinct, by Steven Pinker, the second etymology was directly discussed - it had been admitted as being a fabrication by a columnist, making a joke at the expense of his readers. The first reference I found to the passage is on this page: http://ling.kgw.tu-berlin.de/lexicography/data/MAVENS.html 24.62.181.249 21:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, we now know -- see Etymology section -- that the columnists did not invent the story. Which makes Pinker's story more complex. William Rubel 00:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

"Fart Bread" is a common usage in Germany according to friends of mine as, well, they eat a lot of bread types that makes you fart. "Puxbrot" is the term my friends use, "pux" being a slang word for fart and brot being German for bread. It's true, German pumpernickel is a puxbrot and very yummy too. :-) --58.179.163.21 01:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm german and have never heard the term "puxbrot" or the supposedly slang word "pux". Not saying it doesn't exist, but it's definitely not widespread. 89.246.30.2 09:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe you heard "Pupsbrot", which would translate to "fartbread", but I've never heard that either. 217.93.237.48 (talk) 03:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The section on etymology quotes a few English dictionaries, which is a curious source for a German word. (Even more curious is the story of its French-language origin.) Does anybody know what etymology you would find in a German dictionary? —MiguelMunoz (talk) 00:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a UK thing?

I've just had to come and look this up here because, in 30 years of living in the UK, I've never seen it or found out what it was. I may just be shockingly ignorant or living in the wrong bits of the UK; can anyone reassure me? Vashti 21:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You may just be looking in the wrong place. Imported German pumpernickel is common enough here in Australia, for example, but most shops place it amongst the cakes section for some reason and not with the other breads. I love the stuff and buy it at my local shop at least once a week.

It is sold in a lot of supermarkets. So, yes, I think maybe you are just "shockingly ignorant". ;P I normally buy mine from Ocado.86.173.78.95 (talk) 16:27, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Another possible reason for the name

I've heard storys from books suggesting that Pumpernickel is just a merge of the phrse "Pain pour Nicole". Nicole being Napoleon's horse. The story was that durning a time of limited food Napoleon's soldiers were always grumbling that even though there was little bread for them there was alway's plenty of bread for Nicole, or "Pain pour Nicole". And so the rough rye bread that they had so little of was given the name pumpernickel. Thats just one possiblilty on how pumpernickel got it's name. Any comments? --Malco4 13:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC) Read the entry. The Nugent reference was published long before Napolean was Napolean. William Rubel 00:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Flour

Early English sources always refer to a coarse rye flour. By the mid-eighteenth century the Germans were using -- not everyplace -- but someplaces -- a complex milling system that the French called "mouture economique." This system entailed multiple regrindings -- with sifting between each grinding -- to break the grain into its discrete parts. Thus, one started with a very coarse grind, sifted, and then sent the grain back to be ground a little finer, and be sifted again. It is possible that pumpernickel was made -- or was sometimes made -- with one or another streams of flour derived from this complex milling process. The Germans were known to regrind up to nine times against the French four or five.

It might be helpful if someone who was an expert on early German milling would contribute to this piece.

Modern pumpernickel often includes whole rye berries. These tend to be mixed into dough made with a fine rye flour. Coarse rye meal is not a commercial product -- at least in the United States.

In this, and other food articles, it would be helpful if we could keep track of the time period we are talking about as foods changes. By seeking out the details of historic practice we can sometimes discover ideas that have been lost -- but that we might want to bring back into the recipe. William Rubel 00:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

What on Earth are rye berries? I suspected vandalism but it is quoted here as well. Unless good clarification is given, I will correct into 'rye grains'.BirgittaMTh (talk) 17:47, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Rye berries are whole (that is intact, unmilled) rye grains. This is common, standard terminology, and those who buy / sell / use whole grains, use the terms "wheat berries" and "rye berries". Ericjs (talk) 21:56, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

False etymology

I have removed the false etymology, but archive it here:hgilbert (talk) 15:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

There is, as well, an often quoted story of how Napoleon while invading Germany was brought dark German rye bread for dinner. He declared that he wouldn't eat it and said instead: "C'est pain pour Nicole!". In other words, it wasn't for him but for his horse, Nicole. "Pain pour Nicole" over time became Pumpernickel. However, according to The Straight Dope, the Napoleon story is an example of folk etymology.

References

Vandalism

I removed a line of blatant vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.176.22 (talk) 04:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

American Pumpernickel?

At what point do you just call something fake? Start with white flour, add some white rye, add some artificial coloring, oh and some caraway seeds so it won't taste like all the other bread we make. No whole rye grain or sour starter. This can even be called pumpernickel? The description of it in this article is way too polite. It is a fake, plain and simple! It is not a tradition but the massacre of one.

I think it is worthwhile to include, simply because so many people (Americans) are unaware of the difference between American and German pumpernickel. Without this section, many readers would be left thinking that American and German pumpernickels are the same. To answer your question: "This can even be called pumpernickel?" Whether it is appropriate to call the American bread pumpernickel is irrelevant, since it is already called pumpernickel. Therefore, it is important to note the difference. By all means, though, if you have a WP:RS that calls it fake, include it.75.172.74.214 (talk) 23:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Uh, getting pumpernickel bread made in germany isn't a problem in the u.s., so people can have whichever they want nowadays. suspect if you look hard enough you can find locally made pumpernickel that is made the german way as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.90 (talk) 15:30, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Where You Find It

"It is usually found in markets aimed at an upscale clientele because German pumpernickel is often paired with caviar, smoked salmon, sturgeon, and other expensive products of the hors d'oeuvres tray..."

I don't know about other countries but in Germany you can probably walk into any supermarket and buy Pumpernickel. There are even some discounters who carry it regularly. The habit of putting caviar, smoked salmon and such things on top of a (small) slice of Pumpernickel is only common at (fancy) parties or receptions. You can put anything you like on it, like cheese or curd cheese or sausage (personally I like Teewurst the best, but that's probably only me ;-)) or just butter. I think it is a bit misleading to tell people that it "is often paired with caviar" and therefore only found "in upscale groceries"... --80.136.152.13 (talk) 10:02, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

You can often find miniature pumpernickel specifically made for hors d'oeuvres. Not only is it a convenient size and shape, it's not likely to break when you bite into it and its flavor is strong enough to shine through even when covered with caviar, smoked salmon, pate or other strong-flavored toppings. JDZeff (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

François Villon

Another reference to the "Devil's Fart" originated in the 1400's. The French poet François Villon, while at Paris University, participated in a prank to place a large and well known stone in a classroom doorway. This stone was known as the "Devil's Fart." Here is one reference that talks about it: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/bio/franaois-villon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.155.90.184 (talk) 02:59, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Dimpflmeier

20-30 years ago, the Dimpflmeier Bakery in Canada produced a dense, dark, grainy pumpernickel. It was widely available pre-sliced about 1/4 inch thickness, in square slices, in small packages. I haven't seen it in the grocery stores in many years although there are other breads made by them still available. It was a bit crubly, and sometimes broke apart when used for a sandwich. I wonder if this was a true pumpernickel.

Their website has this for pumpernickel: ___________ >> Pumpernickel - Delicatessen Rye Bread

Ingredients: Unbleached Wheat Flour, Natural Spring Water, Rye Flour, Sour Dough (Rye Flour, Natural Spring Water, Bacterial Culture), Yeast, Coarse Rye Meal, Salt, Ground Caraway Seeds, Canola Oil, Caramel Colour, Cultured Whey Powder (Whey and Bacterial Culture), and Sodium Stearoyl-2-Lactylate (Softener).

Allergy Information: Wheat, Wheat Gluten, Milk Made on equipment that uses Soya Flour << _______________________________________ Somehow I think this is the stuff they have been selling under the name pumpernickel in recent years, which is NOT what I remember many years ago. They are more recently producing a bread called pumpernickel which is not the same: it is lighter in colour and not full of large pieces of rye grains (or, berries, as some people here are calling them).

Frankly, I am writing here because I miss this style of bread, and cannot find it where I live.

68.71.8.38 (talk) 23:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Ther biggest nonsens eI have ever seen

" Nicholas, commonly associated with a goblin or devil (e.g. Old Nick, a familiar name for Satan), " Nicholaus is a SAINT, not name for Satan. He is the name sake of Santas Claus, how stupid are you guys who write about stuff you have no clue about? (Angelo) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:6200:8833:F6C:38:EBA8:255:1BD2 (talk) 01:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

See https://www.dictionary.com/browse/old-nick. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE)