Talk:Puebloans

Pecos Pueblo

Common usage refers to Pecos Pueblo as "extinct," i.e., as no longer having a separate existence. This is a status shared by Soccoro Pueblo, Senecu Pueblo, and many others. I question, then, why "Cicuye Pueblo - now Pecos Pueblo" is included in the list of Pueblos, but the many other extinct Pueblos are not. At the least, the reference to "now" seems misleading. Perhaps a separate listing of Pueblos that no longer continue as functioning governments would be appropriate.

• I just changed it to be clearer, I think. I hope to return to editing this page (for one thing, it needs Hopi), like adding Feast Days. JerryFriedman

Gallery of pottery (bowls) by Pueblo people

The Field Museum has a nice collection of pottery, old and new, from the Pueblo people. For example, Cicuye pueblo showed notable facility and creativity. It would change the feel of the web page to add it; is that all right? If so, how it be in a separate header "Gallery of Pueblo pottery"? I can upload my images to that header on this page, if everyone is amenable. --Ancheta Wis 11:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

go for it. If someome says that it should go on a Pueblo Culture or Pueblo pottery page, [nothing there now] ask them to start one, or, do it yourself. Your pictures probably should be somewhere here, especially if you have good labels or text to accompany them. Carptrash 20:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Source for name change

The change from San Juan Pueblo to Ohkay Owingeh is official as of today, according to this AP story. —JerryFriedman 16:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

thanks. I am going to be driving past Ohkay Owingeh tomorrow and am curious to see if the road signs are changed or not. Given that the name is being changed from an Hispanic one to a native one I'm guessing that signage changes will not show up for a while. Of course there is always the possibility that the "San Juan signs will disappear overnight - so it will be interesting to observe. Carptrash 19:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

PS My in-house astrologer tells me that today is the perfect day to do this name change on. A full moon, while Mercury is retrograde is a great time to revert back to what they used to be. Carptrash 19:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Merger tag

Since there has been no discussion about the merger proposal from April 2007, I am removing the tag. There is obviously a difference between Puebloan peoples and Pueblos. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 16:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

rvv --Ancheta Wis (talk) 03:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think such a merger is advisable, the word 'pueblo' is often used to refer to the particular type of settlement used by Puebloan peoples.Synchronism (talk) 11:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.68.254 (talk) 17:33, 8 September 2015 (UTC) 

Language

How can the Puebloan peoples be classed together when the Zuni language is an isolate, completely unrelated to Hopi? Is it solely a cultural classification? A. Parrot (talk) 02:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

They all live in the southwest, they all practice agriculture, they all came under the influence of other cultures, who named them for the pueblos they lived in. Separate languages also exist for others, such as the Chinese people etc. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 09:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

References

The article mentions "Fader (1954)" and "Eggan (1950)", though both sources are not mentioned under References. --VM (talk) 08:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Looked in the archives and found better citations. Thank you for your comment. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 12:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

It's just that I need soem information about the social structure, especially the relation between the genders, within the Taos pueblo community for a university paper about Mabel Dodge Luhan. So the more exact reference for "Eggan (1950)" might help me now. Thank you for adding these sources. --VM (talk) 19:24, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Eggan wouldn't help you because he is about the Hopi (Western=Arizona=Hopi, Eastern=New Mexico). For what it's worth, the Horgan citation pp. 53-59 discusses family life for the Rio Grande=Eastern pueblos "man, woman & child"; pp 59-68 discusses men's duties "farmer & hunter"; pp 58-74 discusses "travel & trade"; 75-79 discusses "personality & death"; 79-80 summarizes that they all believed in the same sorts of things, except that they were all about to meet the Spanish starting in 1540. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I would contact the Taos Public Library about this, see what stuff they have. I live close enough to it (well, 20 miles, so you'd owe me) so that I could check things out for you. When in doubt, go to the source. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 02:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I thank you both for helping me. --VM (talk) 05:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I highly recommend Horgan (if you cannot find other sources) --Ancheta Wis (talk) 06:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you again. Einar, if needed, how can I communicate more directly with you? As I need information about the situation around 1915-1920 AD and if there might be a D/s-like relation between the genders what Mabel's autobiography let me suggest. But she might have been mistaken. --VM (talk) 11:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

For example Horgan p. 351 documents that 1 century after supposed conversion to Christianity, some Puebloan women talked to each other so loudly during Mass that they had to be separated by placing other churchgoers between them. This was in the 1700s-1800s. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Nancy Wood's book Taos Pueblo Al Knopf, NY 1989 has a chapater (p 119-156) called "The Corn Mother's Daughters" that seems to be about the women of all generations of the pueblo.

It seems to me

that the Colorado section is a good addition to the article. The various states included are an Anglo overlay of largely Pueblo lands. Since some current Pueblo people trace their ancestry back to southern Colorado - in many places just inches from NM or AZ, I think that it should stay. I think that another linked article could be done for Pueblo ruins if they are to be mostly left out of this article. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 21:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I would argue against that inclusion, simply because the article doesn't appear to really address Puebloan history, archaeology, oral history, etc. Different Pueblos trace their ancestry to places all over the Southwest, I wouldn't expect the article to list them all. Regards, ClovisPt (talk) 23:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Rammal-speaking

"This group stands in contrast to the Rammal-speaking Pueblos (except Jemez) ..." -- what the heck is Rammal? 71.90.73.192 (talk) 08:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

'Rammal' has been in the article for years. I do not know the language topics. Please feel free to improve the language designation. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 14:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Use of burros

One of the more interesting things my father who spent time visiting the pueblos told me of was their use of burros. An adult burro is difficult to get up the trails to the pueblos so weaned juvenile burros were carried up by humans. The burros would spend most of their lives as beasts of burden for humans. At the time they arrive the humans are beasts of burden for burros.RichardBond (talk) 21:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I just cut this good faith section out and am moving it here to discuss

"The only reason they live in pueblos is because in the morning it is so HOT so it keeps the house cool and at night it is cool so it keeps the house warm. Pueblos are made out of adobe. Adobe is a type of clay traditionally used as a building material by Native Americans and later, Spanish colonists in the Southwest."

This was in the "Subdivision" section and (1) does not belong there and (2) might not belong anywhere in the article. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 14:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

One criticism is that it accepts the pueblo adobe as a given, rather than something that evolved. The Mogollon to the south, in the prehistoric lands that were to become the US and Mexico, show a seamless evolution, from stick huts on the plains, and from caves in the mountains (for example, the nooks and crannies of Hueco Tanks), to single dwellings, to dwellings with porches, to multiple room dwellings, to pueblos with multiple story, multi-room dwellings. Right there it gives the lie to houses made only of adobe. The people used what they could find. The El Paso Museum of Archaeology, on Trans-Mountain Road, has a nice diorama showing the interrelations of the types of dwellings to be found in pre-Columbian times, such as the Cueva de la Olla (archaeological site), which is located in the Sierra Madre Occidental mountains in the state of Chihuahua, Mexico. (In the Fort Bliss area alone, (about the size of Rhode Island) there are 18,000 archaeological sites.) --Ancheta Wis (talk) 15:29, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

broken ref

This edit has broken the citation. Please revert it yourself, until you fix it. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:21, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Puebloans/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Has some good content. The English is sloppy in some places. No in-line citations. The language section does not discuss languages until halfway through the section. Instead, it focuses on the various classification schemes used by anthropologist. The information about the languages could probably be broken into its own article with daughter articles for the individual languages. There is cultural information in the History section. The culture section isn't totally coherent and could use some expansion. The list of Pueblos probably deserves its own namespace, which should be listed under See also. Needs Appropriate images (12 pottery pics and one historical photo, but not one map, dwelling, or other pertinent images). --Rockero (16 February 06)

Substituted at 21:56, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Texas?

I am wondering what Pueblos there are in Texas, as the lede states. Carptrash (talk) 02:37, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I see it. Carptrash (talk) 02:39, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Capitalized? italic?

Could someone explain why "Pueblo" is a proper noun and capitalized? If it was some sort of nation, what did they call themselves?

And then why isn't it in italic as a foreign word? Or is it now an English word, like "taco" and "tortilla"? deisenbe (talk) 12:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

What happened to the Pueblo after the Pueblo Revolt?

There is very little information on this article about the fate of the Pueblo after the Pueblo Revolt. It's hard to believe that nothing happened from then to American incorporation. What was Mexican occupation like? American occupation? Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 05:00, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The Spanish invaded again. See Pueblo Revolt#Reconquest. Yuchitown (talk) 14:24, 1 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Related groups

I know that WP:Ethnic groups has found many problems with the related groups parameter in the ethnic group infobox. Navajos, Utes, and Hispanos all live in the same region as Pueblo peoples today (Comanche did in the 18th and early 19th century but not now) but don't have common origins and aren't linguistically related. Comanches split from the Shoshone in the Great Basin, actively raided Pueblo communities, then quickly moved onto the Southern Plains. There's even very little intermarriage between Pueblo people and Comanche (I can think of exactly one family). It seems better to just delete this parameter than lump Pueblo people in with totally different ethnic groups that invaded their lands, but if folks here insist on keeping the "related" field, I'll try to find better information from better sources. Yuchitown (talk) 14:24, 1 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

If an umbrella article can name, but separate the groups, they are distinct and even non-coeval with the Puebloans, and the Hopi, and the Tohono Oʼodham. I am thinking of the Tarahumara, the Yaqui (from Mexico), or the Kiowa (who see Hueco Tanks in El Paso as part of their heritage), or the ancient Hohokam (in Chihuahua) and the Mogollon culture, or the Apache from the Spanish-descended 'Hispanos', it would be better for the encyclopedia. The distances were vast before the re-introduction of the horse, which allowed the Kiowa to come to Hueco Tanks (which had harbored human populations for 10,000 years). I would agree with separation of Hispanos from the infobox. They might live in New Mexico, but they are non-associated with Puebloans. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 19:38, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Kiowas are linguistically related (which is an intriguing mystery since they hail from the Northern Rockies), but that's about it. Apache aren't related culturally or linguistically; they just moved into Pueblo lands centuries ago. Perhaps Ancestral Pueblo peoples should be listed in related groups? (If it's retained; deleting "related" as has been done with many other ethnic groups would be far less of a headache.) Hopi are often considered to be Pueblo, so that makes sense, as does Mogollon. Tohono O'odham are neighbors to the west, but how are they related? Don't see the connection to Yaqui or Tarahumara. Yuchitown (talk) 21:09, 1 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

I agree with deleting 'related' groups from the infobox. What I fear is the backlash of Puebloans against 'Hispanos' (2007), and Equestrian statue of Juan de Oñate (2020). Memories are long. I only know of Yaqui or Tarahumara in their relation to the Mexican Revolution (the Yaqui especially were revolutionaries). I agree that the Puebloans did not participate in the Mexican revolution. But many groups rose up during the revolution, including brujas and what are called feminists today. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:30, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with both of you that the other "related" groups do not belong in the Infobox. Netherzone (talk) 23:24, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:30, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Merger or rename proposal

Talk:Pueblo#Requested move 7 March 2024 is discussing the articles Pueblo and Puebloans, what the topic of the former article is or should be, and what if anything is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the word "Pueblo". Comments are welcome there. jnestorius^(talk) 21:20, 8 March 2024 (UTC)