Talk:Princess Zelda/Archive 3

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Sheik?!?

Sheik appears in Super Smash Bros. Melee and Super Smash Bros. Brawl, in which Zelda can change into Sheik as one of her abilities. According to "Smash DOJO", Sheik's new design in Brawl is based on her model created for consideration in Twilight Princess.

Umm... what should we say instead of 'He' or 'She'? It's a common debate that I would REALLY like to not get into. Doomender (talk) 02:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

"It" or "The character"Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 07:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Sheik is ussaly caled he for th sake of it's simpler, but in reality, its just zelda under some cloths, that are VERY loose, and using her magic to not sound the same. fact is, it's a she.--Jakezing (talk) 12:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It would be helpful for you, instead of butting into conversations with unsourced theories and no idea of the context, to read up on this first. The only indication that Sheik is merely Zelda in extra layers is in Super Smash Bros. The game itself depicts it as a fully magical disguise, though whether the gender is different or not is uncertain.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 17:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't use SSB for sources, im doing this on what i know, and from fan communities,--Jakezing (talk) 12:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

...then your basis (your own, unsourced opinion) is completely unhelpful and useless in this discussion. The relevant sources for this discussion are clearly provided on both this talk page and the relevant section in the main article. Please look into them.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 15:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

are we going by the japenses thing because it sats that sheik is a He and that Zelda is uncounices or i think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.136.27.108 (talk) 22:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually In OoT Zelda refers to her appearance as Sheik as a disguise when she reveals herself to Link, not as a gender change, not to mention Sheik has a female scream when she is thrown while they are near the well. Also the only time in the game she is referred to as a man is by Ruto, who had no idea that Sheik was actually Zelda, remember Zelda was hiding her identity from everyone to avoid Ganondorf, she didn't even tell Link. Also the OoT Manga is not canon, none of the mangas are canon, even Wikipedia lists them as not being canon. All canonical evidence supports Sheik being female.

Wrong that's only in the manga and the manga is not canon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.207.208.6 (talk) 07:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

"All canonical evidence" is Ruto calling Sheik a guy. The rest of what you listed is totally in your head. Ruto could be wrong, and the article gives that, but anything further is your own fan-theory, and will not be allowed in the article.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 09:42, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Wrong not once in the aritcle does it say Ruto may be wrong, which is why the section is flawed, not to mention its not in my heads that the Manga is not canon, and its not in my head that Zelda referred to Sheik as a disguise and its not in my head that Sheik has a female voice, but you just keep believing you know better, the rest of us will go on living in reality —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.207.208.6 (talk) 00:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It is in your head that Zelda meant simply "costume" when she called it a disguise. One, because it could have the other meaning, and two, because she's clearly shown using magic to remove the disguise. It is in your head that Sheik has a female scream, because it's voice acting - females nearly always provide the voice acting for all but the old manly characters. In the same games, Link is voiced by a female, so what you think of the scream means nothing. No, the manga is not canon, and the article says that, and it has no effect on your argument, so why bring it up?

Your failure to understand the policies on OR and speculation does not constitute "denial" on my part, so please quit it with the ad hominem attacks.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 10:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Physical characteristics are irrelevant because we know that Sheik is actually Zelda, who is a female. That isn't the question. The real question is whether Zelda was posing as a male or female. If "Sheik" is supposed to be male, then the female characteristics undermine that, but that doesn't mean that Zelda doesn't intend for Sheik to be male. So, is the female Zelda posing as a male Sheikah, or a female Sheikah? D.I. (talk) 21:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Excessive use of copyrighted images

I noticed this article has been diagnosed with NFimageoveruse. Six pictures of her is indeed much. But then again, Zelda has many different incarnations, so its only logical that there are a lot of different pictures. One image which I would suggest for deletion however, is Zeldaww.jpg. We already use another piece of artwork from the Wind Waker (Tetra.jpg), and Tetra only appears in her Zelda clothes near the end of the game, so this appearance of her is not really common anyway. The quality of the image is also a bit poor. Anybody agrees with me? Cheers, Face 07:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've removed the image, as well as the tag. Five images, all of very different incarnations, is just enough I think. Cheers, Face 07:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've removed one more image, the content of which isn't really talked about in the text (the one above it is). I think the removal of the NFIO tag is OK now. Black Kite 08:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Tetra is indeed talked about in the text, and we need an example of the cel-shaded design.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 08:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh... are you sure about that KrytenKoro? I'm gonna miss that one. - Face 17:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - where is her appearance discussed? Where is cel-shading discussed? It isn't. Black Kite 18:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

...okay, for Face, I'm not sure what you're asking. We already have a picture from OoT, and the TP lead image is virtually identical to her adult OoT version. For Kite; yes, we need some discussion of her as cel-shaded, but we also need an image for Tetra herself.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do we "need" an image for her? If her appearance was important, and the text referred to it, then fine, but otherwise.. (WP:NFCC#1, WP:NFCC#3a, WP:NFCC#8). Black Kite 21:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Then, honestly, only the lead image is "needed". Remove the rest.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 00:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily the case. Again, WP:NFCC refers. Black Kite 08:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

...wait, removing the tag was okay earlier, but we can't remove it if we only have one image? How would NFCC require the other images to stay in, but Tetra's not allowed?Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 16:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Snapshots

Please consider adding this gallery as a list of relevant photos about Zelda and Sheik RyanTMulligan (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Category suggestions

Fictional ninjas

Fictional characters with precognition (not sure if she had precognition in OoT; I don't quite remember)

Fictional telepaths

Comments? - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Sheiks a ninja? and all hylians are telepaths.--Jakezing (talk) 12:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Added parenthetical comments

To Sheik section, noting that the Zelda Manga is not canonical and that there is no evidence that Ruto was aware of who Sheik really was, these details were needed to improve the Sheik section of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.47.235 (talk) 04:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really, since they're OR and SPEC.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

No, they're not, never in the game was there any indication of Ruto knowing that Sheik was Zelda, so adding in a parenthesis is needed, otherwise you're passing speculation off as fact, and the Manga is not canon, as there is no mention of Zelda's conciousness being sealed in the game, again your speculations are not fact, and the parenthetical comments are needed to improve the article, prove those things as fact or leave the parenthetical comments, again the key is not to pass off your speculations as fact, this way the reader can decide for themselves.

....umm, yeah, I'm not passing off any spec - that Ruto calls Sheik a male and that the manga says he's a male are verified fact. You're "parentheticals" attempt to make a specific argument that isn't explicitly made by the materials - you're trying to discredit or twist the fats that don't suit your view.

Not at all, i'm pointing out how you are twisting the section to support your own views, does it ever say in the game that Ruto knew that Sheik was Zelda when she referred to Sheik as a male. No, in addition the manga may be liscensed but it is not canon, it may be fact that statements are made, but that does not make the statments fact, unless the character is considered omniscient, which Ruto was not, in addition a non-canon story saying something does not have any influence on the canonical story, just as fanfiction does not have any effect on the games. Sorry you're going to have to prove things before you say them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.47.235 (talk) 04:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

In general, any type of "counter-argument" style of writing like you added is heavily OR and SPEC. The best way to let the reader make up their minds is to simply present what we know - that SSB calls her female, that the licensed manga calls him male, and that Ruto, a sage, calls him male.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 17:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

And once again as I said, there is no evidence that Ruto was aware of Sheik being Zelda, as for the Manga it may be liscensed but it is not canon, saying that Ruto called Sheik a male forgets that there is no evidence she was aware of Sheik being Zelda or even of any actual gender, Link was not aware so how do you know that Ruto was aware, or that she was even telling Link the truth, saying that the Manga calls him male may be true, but it forgets that the Manga is not considered canon, nor are the Smash bros. games, you are leaving out points of fact because they undermine your view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.47.235 (talk) 04:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

....wow. I have nothing nice to say about how incredibly pigheaded you're being.

ONCE AGAIN, the facts are that Ruto calls Sheik male, that the manga claims it's a magical sex-change, and that SSB calls Sheik female. ONLY ONE OF THESE IS CONFIRMED AS CANON. However, there has been no word from the developers that the manga or SSB is contradictory to the events of OoT.

What you added to the article has no purpose but to claim "but this counter-evidence doesn't count!" - even though there is similarly no evidence that Ruto doesn't know. (For example, at that point she's a mystical sage, spiritually tied to the others - including Sheik/Zelda).

If you can't understand how your additions are SPEC and OR in purpose, then you need to relook at why you're adding them. The wording as it is now is the result of long discussion and compromise, as well - editing as you did is a violation of consensus, so don't revert it until you actually show that others agree with you.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 13:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is Zelda listed under fictional Ninja's? Pt. II

In response to this section and that, why is she categorized as a ninja? She may look like one at times, however, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Wikipedia requires a reliable source to confirm this. Any thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I believe Sheik is considered a ninja, and I reckon I could probably find a reliable source that calls her that. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

But, is that important to the character? She's never sheik outside of OOT, and the brawls, which according toi you, don't count, so, is ao ner time appareance enough for that? If you say yes, your a hypocrite.--Jakezing (talk) 12:52, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no substantial evidence that (s)he is an actual Ninja(忍者） and thus (s)he should not reasonably be listed in that category. At most it would be acceptable to describe him as "ninja-like" or something. D.I. (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Tetra's Age

Correct me if I'm wrong but, do we ever really learn Tetra's age? The article says that she's 35, but I have never heard this anywhere(again correct me if I'm wrong) and doesn't she seem very young for 35?Mogthetormentor (talk) 09:48, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

So I am pretty sure that that was a joke. Play the game again and you can see that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.60.241.194 (talk) 20:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Assuming Tetra is the same age as Link, she'd be twelve years old. Link is twelve in The Wind Waker, according to his Brawl trophy. Brawl may not be reliable, but it's the only official source that gives him an age. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.58.144.111 (talk) 17:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The crewman standing in the doorway to Tetra's room on the pirate ship in the beginning of the game said that Tetra was 35, but subsequently said that it was a joke.

new sheik image

i suggest we get a new sheik image. i hope no one argues with this since you guys updated the princess zelda image. so why not sheik?QueenofHearts (talk) 17:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

The only "updated" version of Sheik is the character's proposed Twilight Princess costume. Since this is only used in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, we cannot add it to the article. Super Smash Bros. games are not canonical to the Zelda series. -Cheesefee, the Ultimate Mario Fan- (talk) 04:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Edit war concerning Sheik's gender

There's a single-purpose account intent on removing mention of the contradictions over Sheik's gender. Because Sheik has been officially referred to as both "he" and "she", the article should note that. As contributors to Wikipedia, we don't have the right to pick and choose which parts of the story to tell; that would be truthiness, which is absolutely unacceptable on Wikipedia. Nintendo has contradicted itself concerning Sheik's gender, that's a fact, and we have no choice but to report that in the article. -sesuPRIME 14:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I tried to add a nice summary of how at least one piece of official art is obviously a male skeleton, but others are not so clear, and how fan opinion is quite angrily split, but it got reverted. I think, auto-reverted! It seems you can't make edits anymore without adding something to the citation section, so! I give up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Your addition wasn't automatically reverted, I reverted it. But you are correct that a reliable source will need to be provided for things like that. Saying "fans debate Sheik's gender" or "the image looks male" is original research, so comments like that don't belong on Wikipedia. Also, please refrain from making personal attacks like you did here. Cheers. -sesuPRIME 01:58, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Twilight Princess = Queen?

I've seen various recent sources (none of which on their own can be taken as reliable, though at least one is a person I trust not to be telling fibs) claiming that Zelda in Twilight Princess was days away from her coronation to queen when Zant invaded, which is why she's still just called a Princess in that game, but why she's properly noted with the title of queen in Super Smash Bros. Brawl's instruction manual. The original source of the coronation information is supposed to be a set of Nintendo-produced TP trading cards. Obviously this information can't be added to the article unless someone with her card could give us the text word-for-word. For that matter, I'm not even aware which citation template we'd use for trading cards. I suppose for the most part this discussion is just rambling. I was mainly pointing out the existence of a possible source that could be useful for inclusion if we could properly get a hold of it and cite it. Arrowned (talk) 18:23, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

".. is the name of.. "

August 11, 2010 a good-faith edit was made to the article to change the first line from

"Princess Zelda (ゼルダ姫, Zeruda-hime?) is the name of a fictional character..." to "Princess Zelda (ゼルダ姫, Zeruda-hime?) is a fictional character..."

While the original form seemed redundant, the second line of the article goes on to explain that the name does not apply to an individual character, but several characters throughout the series. Therefore, the second form is technically incorrect.

I understand that, for most intents and purposes, she is understood to be one character. However, for the sake of continuity, it has been explained that she isn't. Rather than confuse the article by constantly referring to her as multiple characters, these first two lines explain away the distinction and allow the article to continue smoothly.

If the addition of three words can clarify a standing fact without confusing the meaning of the article, why remove them? Can you suggest an alternative without removing the factual meaning? Please discuss before editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.158.220.3 (talk) 20:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Just like Superman, Charizard, or multiple other people in fiction are one character, but have multiple incarnations, Zelda is the same. They are just the same character in many different places, or times. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 20:19, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree. That's why I think this article should acknowledge that distinction. Superman has a page devoted to alternative versions. Charizard is acknowledged to be only one species of Pokemon and not an individual character. I understand that the opening line is unusual, but the fact that there are numerous Zeldas seems like information that belongs on the page, don't you agree?168.158.220.3 (talk) 20:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It is stated in the article in the Attributes section, that ^{"Like Link, Princess Zelda has multiple incarnations in the series, varying in physical age and assumably disposition. "} Zelda is not a very unique case. Many characters appear multiple times as different people. The article is about the character, and that is what the first sentence in the article states. ^{"Princess Zelda is a fictional character in The Legend of Zelda series of video games."} _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 20:32, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. Made some changes to the opening lines.168.158.220.3 (talk) 20:56, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh wow. I didn't even read the second sentence. It actually confirms what we are talking about, which lets the readers know that there are multiple Zelda characters. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 21:30, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly why I asked you to read it... twice. Because it justified the first sentence. However, I'm reverting your change. You are changing the meaning of the sentence and removing the presence of the point I am trying to make. If you can't accept a compromise, perhaps you can find a source that disagrees with my own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.158.220.3 (talk) 21:44, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I removed that part, only because it already stated that Zelda is the name of every female in the Hyrule family, and it made it look like other people were named Zelda. Now that you have tweaked the wording, it makes sense, and I guess is acceptable. However, I don't think "www.thehylia.com" is a reliable source, and is just a fansite. So I will remove that source. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 01:38, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

My mistake. That was actually just the translation. I posted the original. While not preferable (obviously), Wikipedia can accept unreliable sources as translation, if no other sources exist. But I found an online version of the article for verifiability.168.158.220.3 (talk) 20:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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