Talk:Princess Nadejda Petrovna of Russia

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Requested move

This page should not have been moved to the title Princess Nadia Petrovna of Russia. She is known as Princess Nadejda or Princess Nadezhda Petrovna in ALL the recent literature about the Romanovs. Nadia is a nickname form of the name. The correct title of this page should be either Princess Nadejda or Princess Nadezhda Petrovna of Russia.

Support as nominator. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Nadia is the common English form of Nadejda and Nadezhda, two Russian transliterations which only go to show the indecisiveness of using direct transliterations for royalty where anglicizations are customary. Charles 01:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It makes very little sense to use a name that has not been commonly used in the literature about the Romanovs for this person just for the sake of it being the English version of the name. She is commonly known as Nadejda or Nadezhda, not as Nadia. Wikipedia convention is to use a name that is in the most common and most widely known. That is Nadejda or Nadezhda. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 01:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support the proposed title is used in books I own for the Princess though I don't know why considering the article was moved today that a request move has been put up usually if someone objects to a un discussed renaming they will move it back to it's old title. - dwc lr (talk) 10:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect User:Charles would have moved it back immediately to his chosen title, making it necessary to call for a vote to move it back to its old title anyway. I decided to go right to the vote and discussion instead of going through the process we've gone through on other articles. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair play to you for calling a vote but I think if you had moved it back immediately if he wanted it at Nadia he would then have to call a vote and present supporting evidence as Nadejda was the consensus version. - dwc lr (talk) 15:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly, but we've been having an ongoing, heated debate about the use of names for several other of the Romanov articles. Charles prefers English names; I prefer using the names that are most widely used. In some cases that will be the English name, as in Tsar Nicholas II or Helen of Serbia; in other cases, such as Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich of Russia or Prince Ioann Konstantinovich of Russia or Princess Nadejda, I think it should be the Russian form of the name, as that is what they are called in the most recent literature. The debate over Charles' decision to move the page to Prince John Constantinovich of Russia from Prince Ioann Konstantinovich is still ongoing on that page. I have called for it to be moved back to its original title. It just seemed better to go straight to the debate. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 16:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support I've always seen her referred to as Nadejda. Morhange (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's impossible to use the patronymic name (Petrovna) coupled with the short form of name (Nadia). Princess Nadia Petrovna may be only a funny or curious thing, but never a title of encyclopaedic article. --Worobiew (talk) 22:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this move. The the remarks about French below presumably refer to representing ж by j, rather than, as WP:RUS suggests, zh. If either, Nadezhda, please. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

What is the source for "Nadejda" for Надежда since it appears French-based and/or non-standard? — AjaxSmack 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry for my bad English, may be I don't understand all of your message. But "Nadejda" (or "Надежда") is one of traditional Russian names (with lexical meaning 'a hope'), not French-based. And the short form of "Надежда"/"Nadejda" is "Надя"/"Nadia". --Worobiew (talk) 09:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd add that this is a name that doesn't really have an English form. Its most popular and long-standing form is "Nadine," which has been in use, though rarely, since the 1800s in the United States. The form "Nadia" began being used in the United States in great numbers only in 1976 because of Nadia Comaneci. Neither form has been used to translate Princess Nadejda's name into English in any of the most recent literature about the Romanovs. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What form HAS been used to translate her name?

As I have said, ad infinitum, the books I have all refer to her as either Princess Nadejda or Princess Nadezhda, which is why I titled the article Princess Nadejda in the first place. She's a member of a minor branch of the Romanov family, so there really hasn't been much written about her, period. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To User:Worobiew, sorry I wasn't clear. What I mean was using "j" for ж is usually a French transliteration. English usually uses "zh." I didn't mean the name itself was French. To User:Bookworm857158367, I understand you have said ("ad infinitum") the books you have refer to either Nadejda or Nadezhda but you haven't cited any of them. The reason I ask is not to challenge the proposal but to ascertain whether Nadejda or Nadezhda is more appropriate. As I just noted, "j" for ж is not standard in English whereas "zh" is. Online, for example, the sourced ThePeerage.com[1] uses "zh" while others use "j." — AjaxSmack 20:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen both. I used "Nadejda" because that was the version used in the Zeepvat book I cited in the article. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 22:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever decision we make here, will it affect the other Russian princess Nadejda? We have articles for a Nadejda, like Nadejda Danilina and if you search Nadejda, you get more results for articles where that version is used. At the same time, we have Nadezhda Muravyeva and Nadezhda von Meck. Is it more a matter of the user's personal preference than translation? Morhange (talk) 05:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved this page back to the original title, per the majority vote in support of the move. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]