Talk:Princess Johanna of Hesse and by Rhine

Photo

The photo I've used is taken from a posting at Alexanderpalace.org and is probably from 1939. It's likely copywrited. I've labeled it fair use because there are no other free images of her, but I'd like to make sure it's OK to use. Please remove it if it isn't. --Bookworm857158367 03:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Notability

As I've commented on the other articles, this subject is hardly notable. This can all be compacted into an article on the Hessian grand ducal family. Charles 19:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I have noted that there are separate articles for Princess Elisabeth of Hesse, Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine, Grand Duke Alexander Alexandrovich of Russia, Grand Duchess Alexandra Alexandrovna of Russia, etc., all royal children who died at an extremely young age. These three particular youngsters seem to be at least as notable as the above mentioned royal children. I also refer you to a discussion about whether the article about Grand Duke Alexander Alexandrovich should be deleted. The result of the vote was that the article should be kept, his royal status made him notable. --Bookworm857158367 14:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Original research

There's a lot of original research and personal bias being added to this page lately (as well as at this page), neither of which are allowed. Regardless of whether she was legally entitled to it or not, she did use the title of "Princess" and it is definitely part of her common name. German (non-)royals are even still using it today. "Creating" a "legal name" for her when there is no such source anywhere that confirms it, is just not going to fly. Please stop with the nonsense.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@Cebr1979: I have been here since 2002. I used to be an administrator here. I know bloody well how Wikipedia works. That doesn't mean i have to agree with it. Wikipedia has a systemic bias towards a small group of extreme fandom editors. In the case of both Johanna and Marie, their articles have suffered greatly from being created and maintained by hard core monarchist fans who have a hard on for defunct European royal houses. Paul Austin (talk) 07:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not interested in how long you've been here or what titles you've had in the past. I said there's been some original research and personal bias added to the pages... and that's true. I said it needs to stop... and that's also true.Cebr1979 (talk) 07:18, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

fantasy title of a baby

"Fantasy title of a baby". Yes, you are correct. Johanna was not born a Hesse. She was born the daughter of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich Romanov (aka Nicholas Tchebotareff) and the widow, HM Queen Consort Marie of Yugoslavia (aka Princess Marie of Romania "Mignon"). She was taken to Darmstadt, Hesse, and Grand Duke Ernst, however he died. Donatus and Cecile adopted her. They left her behind due to the fact that they did not want anyone to know. This is why she remained when the family traveled by plane to the wedding of Margaret Geddes and Prince Louis of Hessen-Darmstadt. After the crash she was taken to England to live with Louis and Margaret but was not able to remain, it was far too controversial. Princess Ileana of Romania (wife of Anton von Habsburg) placed her with an Uhlan from Silesia, and adopted by him and his wife, the Adam family. She lived in Germany through the War and immigrated to the USA from Berlin in 1968. Princess Ileana also immigrated to the USA at the same time, prior to her returning to Europe to enter the monastery because she could no longer hold these truths without the help of God. The woman is still alive and well, I have spoken with her many times over six years. All of this was confirmed to her by Princess Ileana (aka Mother Alexandra) at The Monastery of the Transfiguration, Ellwood City Pennsylvania in 1990. This, by the way is original research and not bias in any way. She was, according to Mother Alexandra, "the real Romanov Princess". She is indeed mentioned in the book, "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter", by Robert K. Massie (1996). At that time, however, she was not 100% certain who she was. There is ample documentation and evidence to this fact. She was involved in the court case(s) in Charlottesville, VA on behalf of the Russian Nobility Association.

As far as title(s), these families all use them. All you needed to do was review "The Peerage". The children of Donatus and Cecile were all titled.

Ludwig Ernst Andreas Prinz von Hessen und bei Rhein b. 25 Oct 1931, d. 16 Nov 1937 Alexander Georg Karl Heinrich Prinz von Hessen und bei Rhein b. 14 Apr 1933, d. 16 Nov 1937 Johanna Marina Eleonore Prinzessin von Hessen und bei Rhein b. 20 Sep 1936, d. 14 Jun 1939 stillborn son von Hessen-Darmstadt3 b. 16 Nov 1937, d. 16 Nov 1937

http://www.thepeerage.com/p10111.htm#i101108

I am not a monarchist fan, however, an academic historian with several decades expertise in Imperial Russia. When these truths come out you will have a great deal of editing to do...

Best of Luck! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.244.201 (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi. I'm sorry i got heated. I just don't think Johanna should be called by the title and style of Princess of Hesse and by Rhine, just because the Hessian Grand Ducal family didn't accept that a bunch of smelly peasants could abolish their titles, just because they happened to be the government. Paul Austin (talk) 15:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

You appear to be engaging in original research on this article. I can find several books that refer to Johanna (and various immediate family members) as Prince or Princess of Hesse and by Rhine. Start with a book called "Descendants of Queen Victoria." Most German nobility do incorporate the title into their surnames. Johanna Prinzessin von Hessen or, for short, Johanna von Hessen would likely be her legal name. However, the title was widely used and published. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:52, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't call books and articles authored by monarchists and monarchy historians, reliable for the purposes of Wikipedia. The Grand Duchy of Hesse was abolished in 1918. All German and Austrian royal and noble titles were legally abolished in 1919. Those are facts. Produce a source that is not pro-monarchy or monarchist. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 11:24, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't have to. The titles were and still are widely used,. That has been sourced. I'm not going to agree to your proposed edits of the article and others haven't either. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 02:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

(see my talk:) I wrote an article about a woman of a noble family, and her name is a simple Tatiana von Metternich-Winneburg. Even former dukes don't have names starting with Duke, but first name, then duke, such as Christian, Duke of Saxe-Weissenfels. We widely use academic titles such as Prof. and Dr. in German, but not in article names. My 2ct: get rid of the leading "Princess", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Former dukes are listed that way because Duke of Saxe-Weissenfels is a regnal title, much like how Johanna's grandfather is Ernest Ludwig, Grand Duke of Hesse. It's why we have Albert II, Prince of Monaco, where his princely title comes after his regnal name, whereas his youngest sister is simply Princess Stéphanie of Monaco to indicate she is just a princess of Monaco, not The Princess of Monaco. Piratesswoop (talk) 23:41, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Looks strange to me, but so be it. Are there guidelines for doing so: giving more prominence to a "title" for those people who don't have it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:43, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Johanna was not "Princess Johanna", that we can agree on. The German Wikipedia has no article on her but her father's article there uses the surname "Hessen-Darmstadt". Thoughts, Gerda? Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 13:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll move it to 'Johanna, etc' then. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 13:59, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: the Grand Ducal family that Johanna was a member of was Hessen-Darmstadt or in English, Hesse-Darmstadt. Given that the German Wikipedia is edited mostly by Germans and German-speakers, I think we can defer to their greater expertise. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 14:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

There are guidelines: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility): European monarchs whose rank is below that of king (e.g., grand dukes, electors, dukes, princes), should be at the location "{Monarch's first name and ordinal}, {Title} of {Country}". Examples: Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria, Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg. This is often usage, and avoids the question of when these Duchies became monarchies, as opposed to noble offices within the Kingdom of Germany/the Holy Roman Empire. and Where they have no substantive title, use the form "{title} {name} of {country}", e.g. Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark. Use only the highest prefix title the person ever held and used (roughly before the 17th century, prince/ss would not be prefixed automatically). Piratesswoop (talk) 00:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Johanna did not have a constitutionally recognized title. After the abolition of the German monarchies and the privileges of the nobility, royals and nobles were allowed to use their (non-sovereign) titles as legal surnames. (As officially registered surnames they were protected by the law and could not be assumed by just anyone. And they were allowed to be gender-specific.) The lines Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt had decided to use the titles Prinz und Landgraf von Hessen / Prinzessin und Landgräfin von Hessen as their surname henceforward. Johanna was thus born as Johanna Marina Eleonore Prinzessin und Landgräfin von Hessen. "Prinzessin und Landgräfin von Hessen" was her legal surname and she could thus be legally adressed as Fräulein Prinzessin und Landgräfin von Hessen. Before 1918 she would also have had the legal style Ihre großherzogliche Hoheit / Her Grand-Ducal Highness and had her title (referring to the state and not the dynasty) prefixed to her name, as Prinzessin Johanna von Hessen und bei Rhein. Landgräfin would not be a title in common usage before 1918, but a part of the dynastic inheritance she was entitled to share in. 182.239.131.26 (talk) 17:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Princess Johanna of Hesse and by Rhine/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Good references, but needs nuch more substance and persondata. - Duribald 18:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 18:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 03:25, 30 April 2016 (UTC)