Talk:Princess Elisabeth of Hesse and by Rhine

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Article title

Any reasons why she is not at Elizabeth Fyodorovna?

Good question, her sister is at Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse, which combines her postconversion name and patronym, and her country/place of origin. If she converted to Orthodoxy prior to her marriage she should be at Elizabeth Fyodorovna of Hesse, is she converted post marriage she should be at Princess Elizabeth of Hesse and by Rhine. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Prsgodd e ss187 01:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

She (St. Elizabeth) was married prior to her conversion. There's a bit more about her conversion in the Orthodox Wiki article on her: Elizabeth the New Martyr.Frjohnwhiteford 10:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is part of our naming conventions to avoid titles (Grand Duchess, Princess, etc.) in article's name at at all.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 04:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The naming conventions really don't say anything about people who marry into foreign families, except for consorts. When titling the article of a deceased consort, the version Name of Country is used. When titling other royalty, the Princess/Grand Duchess is allowed. If you look at Elizabeth's other sisters Princess Marie of Hesse and the Rhine (died young), Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine (married her cousin Prince Heinrich of Prussia), Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine (married Prince Louis of Battenberg).

Prsgodd e ss187 15:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be good to dispense with all the titles in the names.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm momentarily confused here. Is the proposition not to call her "Grand Duchess," at all? Dr. Dan 23:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Why do we need titles in names? I can understand countries, or dates, but titles? If we give her the Grand Duchess, then why not move our old good friend Władzio to Vladislaus by God's grace king of Poland, and lands of Kraków, Sandomierz, Sieradz, Łęczyca, Kuyavia, supreme-prince of Lithuania, lord and heir of Pomerania and Ruthenia, etc.?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was Władziu. Anyway, a little too much nitpicking for my taste, Piotruś. Let me assure you, that I'm a very far cry away, from being a Monarchist. Don't like to see them murdered in basements in the middle of the night, however, along with their children, doctors, cooks, and dogs, either. It would be easier to make Vilnius into Wilno in English, than to dump Prince Phillip's title or Earl Mountbatten's title from the English Wikipedia. Don't bother. Dr. Dan 01:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He also said

To know that you do not know is the best. To pretend to know when you do not know is a disease.--Dr. Dan 12:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Grand Duke Serge's marriage to Princess Elisabeth of Hesse and by Rhine was arguably the last nail in the Romanov coffin. She was the instigator of an unarranged meeting between the Tsarevich Nicholas and his future wife Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine. It was due to the latter marriage that tension amongst the Russian people escalated to such a large degree that the Emperor abidcated. The Empress Alexandra was hated by many for her trust in Grigori Efimovich Rasputin and there also growing resentment due to her German blood. The Empress was also responsible for the transfer of a Haemophiliac gene that passed to her son the new Tsarievich which ultimately paved the way for Rasputin's admitance to the Palace and royal circles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.245.163 (talk) 10:51, 29 September 2006

She's either Elisabeth (German spelling; no need for transliteration for other English speakers) or Yelizaveta (Russian transliteration). But she's not "Elizabeth." Wikimandia (talk) 21:13, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Exact circumstances of death?

There seems to be some dispute about precisely how she and her companions died. In the Russian article it's simply said that they were thrown into the mineshaft and many only died afterward from "hunger and wounds." There's no mention of grenades. In the links on the English article, the first one (purportedly an account by the "assassin") mentions grenades, but it also mentions a somewhat incredible number of other attempts to kill them (shades of Rasputin here), which still left them singing hymns. The second link, meanwhile, also is silent about grenades. Thoughts?--James Honan-Hallock 20:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Elisabeth or Elizabeth ?

What is the correct spell of her name ?

Elisabeth was a German Princess and married a Russian Grand Duke. She was the sister from Alexandra (later Alexandra Feodrovna), by birth and the aunt, by marriage.

In the article about her other sisters Victoria, Irene and May you can see the German Version of the name. But we are here in the english wikipedia and the correct form has to be Elizabeth.

I know, that the name can also pronunced in the German Version for english tounges. --AndreaMimi (talk) 20:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

titles and styles

The titles and styles section was removed in good faith (assumed), but this is (arguably) one of the most famous princesses in all of history, or at least in the 18th and 18th centuries, and her family and history is well known. So there is really little question that she had titles and styles either exactly as stated or almost exactly as stated. The titles and styles section should remain in the article even if there might be (not likely) some small detail that might not be exactly perfectly correct. I have marked these styles as requiring citations as per the original editor's concerns. --L.Smithfield (talk) 13:29, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Ivan Kalyayev

The article states that her husband's assassin, Ivan Kalyayev, was hanged, but the article on Kalyayev states that he was shot to death by Russian soldiers.Bill (talk) 22:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction of Ivan Kalyayev says hanged (as does https://spartacus-educational.com/Ivan_Kalyayev.htm), so I've standardised on 'hanged'. Celia Homeford (talk) 16:31, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Barbara/Varvara Yakovleva

Barbara/Varvara Yakovleva, whose WP article is entitled Barbara (Yakovleva) and starts "Varvara Alexeyevna Yakovleva ... called Nun Barbara" is mentioned 3 times. Firstly as "Varvara Yakovleva, a sister from the Grand Duchess's convent" (Section #5 Death) and then as if she hasn't already been mentioned: "Sister Barbara (Varvara Yakovleva), one of her nuns" (Section #6.1 Fate of the remains) and "Nun Barbara (Varvara Yakovleva, her former maid)" (Section #6.2 Canonisation). Considering all are within a few lines of each other some editing is needed. Mcljlm (talk) 19:32, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus that the princess who survived into adulthood is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:32, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– There's a clear primary topic here and it's not even close. Of the three Princesses Elizabeth of Hesse and by Rhine, two died as children with one of them lacking a Wikipedia page while the third one married into the Russian imperial dynasty during a turbulent period, was killed in her 50s and is a religious martyr. A simple hatnote is enough to disambiguate her from her less known relatives with the same name. Killuminator (talk) 21:15, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support It is just clear who the primary topic is. Keivan.f^Talk 21:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The current article title distinguishes her from the two others with the same name who died as children. Her married title was Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna. no need to change it. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 21:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's a primary topic Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic. Killuminator (talk) 22:02, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Andrewa (talk) 06:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The two kids are not as notable as she was (one of them doesn't even have a page). That's a fact demonstrated by page views and coverage in different sources. Her married name is also irrelevant. The pages on Russian grand duchesses by marriage use their maiden names, rather than names bestowed upon them after marriage. That helps with both disambiguation and keeping the pages consistent with princesses married into other dynasties (ex. Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark instead of "Princess Paul of Yugoslavia", etc.). Keivan.f^Talk 22:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Only one other Princess Elisabeth of Hesse and by Rhine has a page. The only one who actually survived to adulthood is clearly the primary topic. There's simply no reasonable contest for that. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Clear primary topic. Andrewa (talk) 06:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I just noticed that Princess Elisabeth of Hesse and by Rhine (1895–1903) is a GA, while the proposed PTOPIC is not. This doesn't affect my !vote, but I figure it should be raised to the attention of others. estar8806 (talk) ★ 12:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.