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Fort William and Butcher Cumberland

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Fort William is not named after Cumberland but William of Orange.

I am familiar with the expression 'Butcher Cumberland' but have never come across 'The Butcher of Cumberland.' Rcpaterson 00:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The fort itself was named after William of Orange, and the settlement growing around it was named Maryburgh after his wife. As the settlement grew, it was renamed Fort William, after the butcher. "The Butcher of Cumberland" is how I, since childhood, have always known the butcher, having grown up in Lochaber. Lianachan (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard "the Butcher of Culloden", which makes more obvious sense. —Tamfang (talk) 04:54, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where did this guy live?

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I've put a contradict banner on this page. Did Cumberland live at Cumberland Lodge, or did he live in London? Cumberland Lodge is not in London, but in Windsor Great Park, which isn't far from the western edge of current London, but well out of it in the 18th century. --Publunch 22:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably he lived at both in different parts of the year? john k 23:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath and flowers

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I've removed a factually inaccurate claim that the pacification lasted for years (untrue - within a decade highlanders were flocking to the colours to serve in the army of George II, under Captain General HRH the Duke of Cumberland) & that it constituted something like 'genocide', neither of which was what the web page offered as a reference actually claimed.

I've also removed the unreferenced claim that the 'English' & 'Scots' named plants after Cumberland in the aftermath of the battle. As is noted elsewhere in the article, most Scots were delighted at Cumberland's victory & heaped praise & honours on him.Thoskit (talk) 05:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MOST Scots? And where do you get THIS statistic? The Scots who died while held in airless dungeons refused medical care? The Scots who were forcibly transported? The Scots who were BUTCHERED on on the field of battle injured and trying to surrender? The Scots who were burned alive? This is one of the most prejudiced and least balanced pages I have EVER seen.

And the pacification did last for years. Apparently YOU, sir, have never heard of the Act of Proscription which was NOT repealed until 1782 -- THIRTY-SIX years later.

I would LOVE to see someone come up with an instance of this supposed mercy that Cumberland practiced.



71.236.155.174 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Re flowers: it is certainly a matter of Popular Culture that his supporters named him Sweet William. In consequence of which, his opponents (chiefly the Scots) now refer to the flower as Stinking Billy. A possible mistaken conflation with William I, also known as Billy, may be the reason for exclusion of this piece of trivia from the article. The entire reference may have no historical provenance whatever; but it is often cited as if it had, and is thus of note as a piece of cultural trivia.
Nuttyskin (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The names 'Sweet William' and 'Stinking Billy' denote entirely different plants: Dianthus barbatus & Jacobaea vulgaris, syn. Senecio jacobaea i.e. Ragwort
The function of the term 'billy' in Scots, akin to 'jack' in wider English (see Disctionary of the Scots Language "Fellow in general, lad as opposed to lass, the word taking its peculiar complexion of affection, contempt or ridicule from its context" <https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/billy_n1>)
amd the usage for example of 'Sticky Willie' as the common Scots name for Cleavers or Goosegrass (Galium aparine) would tend to support the dismissal as folklore any association of 'Stinking Billy' with Cumberland. JF42 (talk) 06:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Guerilla war

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I removed the remark that the Jacobites intended to fight a guerilla war after the battle at Culloden because there is no reference for it. In "The '45: Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Untold Story of the Jacobite Rising" by Christopher Duffy the author explicitly stated that Prince Charles had no interest in fighting a guerilla war. Scafloc (talk) 13:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Butcher Cumberland

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The article in general, and the "Butcher" section in particular, are curiously devoid of any mention of the attrocities carried out by this man in the Scottish Highlands - the source, in fact, of this nickname. That doesn't seem very balanced or fair. Would anybody care to put a bit of Highland perspective into it? It's currently all English and lowland Scots.... Lianachan (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. I came here because of the quotation I added here. I figure the language about his Highland activities is taken from the 1911 EB, with only minor modifications. -- llywrch (talk) 06:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the origin of the nickname. The fact that the Butcher is one of the most hated figures in all of Highland history is surely worth mentioning on the page. It's cerainly mentioned everywhere else you read about him.Lianachan (talk) 09:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Everywhere else, except in serious academic works of the sought that Wikipedia aims & ought to reflect. 'Attrocities' is highly POV & should be avoided. Even the website linked to doesn't specify that 'Butcher' was the highlanders' nickname for His Royal Highness - Walpole's letters, which are in the public domain & online, make it clear that the taunt was first made at a London dinner party.80.229.9.98 (talk) 01:42, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide sources for this statement, please, anonymous editor. While wars in prior centuries often included non-combatants as targets for destruction -- many of whom not only were indifferent towards either side -- savaging them was never considered as a good thing. Either before -- or after -- Lianchan's edit there has been no details of what Cumberland did to the Highlanders; someone not as informed about Scots history as I would be unable to tell whether he killed & burned his way across Scotland, or simply was a social buffoon & jerk much like a recent US president. The EB1911 text is nothing but whitewash here. -- llywrch (talk) 05:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you didn't spot sentence For his activities at Culloden and afterwards, Prince William Augustus came to be known in the Highlands as "Butcher Cumberland" then. I am only aware of one "serious academic work" whch refutes what the Butcher did in the Highlands, an extremely biased book by Jonathan Oates which nobody I know takes seriously. Before I made that change to the page, there was absolutely no indication whatsoever that the Butcher was even mildly disliked in the Highlands. Only the worst kind of idiot, or pro-Butcher apologist, could claim that was fair or balanced. Lianachan (talk) 10:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lianchan, I removed the second link to that paragraph; it was to a mirror of this Wikipedia article. (It was an older draft of this page, which is probably why you didn't realize this.) Still, this conflict could be resolved with a little research & providing actual examples of the atrocities. If atrocities can be documented, then the reason why he was later called "Butcher Cumberland" is apparent & NPOV. -- llywrch (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are several potential references. I fully expect all mention of his actions to be removed from the article anyway. But, for the record, two examples are The Butcher: The Duke of Cumberland and the Suppression of the Forty-Five by W.A. Speck, Caernarfon, 1995; and Last of the Free: A Millennial History of the Highlands & Islands of Scotland by J. Hunter, Mainstream Publishing, 1999. Lianachan (talk) 17:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be two possible causes of your concern over the Undiscovered Scotland refs, 80.229.9.98. One may be that you believe the London event is the origin of the epithet "Butcher" and that subsequent vernacular use stems from this point. I have no difficulty with this idea at all. A second might be that you think that Cumberland's actions, which today would certainly receive opprobrium, are being exaggerated or are otherwise inappropriate to mention. On the assumption that the former is the main issue at stake I will attempt to come up with some kind of revised wording that honours the former issue but does not negate the latter. Ben MacDui 15:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The constructive spirit of your last entry is appreciated, Ben MacDui. On the origins of the 'Butcher' nickname, yes, I do believe this originated in London. What's more, the tale of its origin sits alongside discussion not of anything which happened in Scotland, but of Cumberland's insistence that the three captured 'Rebel Lords' be executed, despite vocal pleas for clemency, such as the Duke of Hamilton begging George II to spare the life of William Boyd, 4th Earl of Kilmarnock. This convinces me that we should not imply association of the 'Butcher' nickname with the redcoats' so-called 'pacification' of Jacobite areas. I don't oppose any mention of the 'pacification', but I'm opposed to including anything from what I believe to be inaccurate, sensationalist sources. 'Undiscovered Scotland' does seem to me to be a very poor quality source - it's clearly very heavily influenced by Charles Petrie's purely fictional essay 'If: a Jacobite Fantasy', to the point of including some of Petrie's fictional events in its supposedly serious account of events 1745-46 (e.g. a Jacobite rebellion in Wales). In the light of the point about the origins of 'Butcher', I also think that the 'pacification' should be mentioned in the preceding section. As for revising the article to satisfy everybody, I'll start the ball rolling with a note on the 'pacification' in what I believe is the appropriate place.80.229.9.98 (talk) 17:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fair dos. Lack of citations apart I'm quite happy with that. Ben MacDui 19:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

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Why oh why has this article changed from William Augustus, Duke of Cumberland (correct) to Prince William, Duke of Cumberland (incorrect)? Can someone sort it out please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.219.16 (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Persia, for heaven's sake !!!

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In the section War of the Austrian Succession, there was the claim:

In December 1742, he became a Major-General, and, the following year, he first saw active service in Persia.

So far as I can determine, Britain had no interests in Persia until c. 1801 (see, e.g., Treaty of Gulistan, Gore Ouseley) and the first British operations there were in 1856. There might have been some minor adventures there earlier, but it seems unlikely the prince would have been involved in anything like that. Further, other sources suggest that Prince William actually first saw military service in Germany.

Upon investigating the history of the article, it turned out that this change was made more than 4 years ago, in July 2006! The change was made by an anonymous account (82.47.49.3) who made 3 edits to this article, and no others. The other two edits were:

both of which are very obvious vandalism. It seems pretty clear that the Persia change was also vandalism, but rather more subtle.

It seems a little disappointing, for the integrity of Wikipedia, that we can spend 4 years arguing over the prince's reputation in Scotland, and let something like this slip. -- 202.63.39.58 (talk) 10:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

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Cumberland sauce is also named after him. It was invented in Hanover, Germany.Korhomme (talk) 06:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Post Culloden Atrocities - more details needed

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This article only had 3 lines about the post-Culloden atrocities carried out by Cumberland and his men. Given that this was where he got his nickname, a few more details should surely be included. I'm not talking about on the battlefield, where killing defeated rebels was standard practice in Europe at the time, but the Highland 'pacification' that came after and was not standard practice. Most important I think, are some numbers - how many people were killed, and how many were arrested or displaced. Are we talking a few thousand, a few tens of thousand, or what? LastDodo (talk) 13:06, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A good point to start would be with John Prebble's books "Culloden" and "The Highland Clearances" which detail this period. Although sympathetic to the Highland viewpoint, Prebble nonetheless makes it clear that much of the depopulation occurred at an "operational" level, rather than by Government order, and that it was carried out in the main by Scottish Lowland troops and the Highland Chiefs themselves - aided, too, by an economic imperative that had been depleting the Highlands for many decades. Instances of specific atrocities are comparatively few (but may, of course, have been undocumented), because most Highlanders complied with the instructions not to carry arms, not to wear martial dress and not to harbour wanted fugitives. For all that these latter instructions are portrayed as some kind of "oppression", they are in fact a fairly modest and completely standard request that would have been made by any conquering army. To the best of my knowledge, the only people who were arrested (and subsequently executed (very few) or deported (quite a lot)) were those who had actively taken part in the rebellion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 (talk • contribs) 12:58, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oxymoron

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"immensely popular throughout parts of Britain"

I couldn't work out to which of the various discussions of Cumberland's reputation post-Culloden I might attach this comment. A small point but this statement from the introductory paragraph is surely contradictory. I would suggest Cumberland could be popular either throughout Britain or in parts of Britain (however thoroughly), but not both. I suspect the latter. I recommend excising 'throughout' as misleading. JF42 (talk) 06:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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