Talk:Premenstrual syndrome

added 'needs expert review' template

I flagged this article as needing an expert, ideally some doctor who also knows how to write wikipedia articles. This article is a total mess. There are a lot of competing theories citing various papers, and no coherent view of the actual causes or treatments. In the treatments section, too many "potential" treatments are listed, even many with studies, but no indication of the results of the studies. If they were not double-blind with significant improvement compared to placebo, they should not be listed as treatments. There was even some comment about evolutionary relevance, which is likely total rubbish. Speculative or unsubstantiated theories should not be included either, even if they were published. The same goes for discussions about genetic origins and twin studies. This does not mean much to the etiology. While it may suggest there is a genetic component, MANY things have genetic components. Unless someone identified an allele and stated that it specifically adversely affects only women cyclically each month, this should not be included. For example, serotonin transporter promoter VNTRs are associated with depression IN THE GENERAL POPULATION, and not just women due to hormonal or other physiological fluctuations. Wrfrancis (talk) 11:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Why should the article reflect a "coherent view" if (as it would appear) there may not be one? And there's nothing wrong with learning the latest expert speculation, as long as it is indeed by experts and clearly labeled as speculation.Daqu (talk) 03:28, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Why does this article link to the article on Feminism?

At bottom this article links to the Feminism article. But why?

The Feminism article — at least as of this writing — contains no mention of PMS or of menstruation.Daqu (talk) 03:25, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Frequency

The 2003 ref in AFP states "Up to 85 percent of menstruating women report having one or more premenstrual symptoms, and 2 to 10 percent report disabling, incapacitating symptoms" [1]

The NIH states "There’s a wide range of estimates of how many women suffer from PMS. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists estimates that at least 85 percent of menstruating women have at least 1 PMS symptom as part of their monthly cycle. Most of these women have fairly mild symptoms that don’t need treatment. Others (about 3 to 8 percent) have a more severe form of PMS, called premenstrual dysphoric (dis-FOHR-ik) disorder (PMDD)." [2]

These estimates appear to be somewhat at odds. User:WhatamIdoing do you think of "Up to 85% women of child-bearing age report having symptoms prior to menstruation. In two to ten percent the symptoms interfer with normal activities." as a summary? The 85% is not refering to just "physical symptoms" but any symptoms. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:34, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Mayo states "It's estimated that as many as 3 of every 4 menstruating women have experienced some form of premenstrual syndrome." [3] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Definition

The AFP 2003 paper says

"At least one of the following affective and somatic symptoms during the five days before menses in each of the three previous cycles:

Affective symptoms: depression, angry outbursts, irritability, anxiety, confusion, social withdrawal

Somatic symptoms: breast tenderness, abdominal bloating, headache, swelling of extremities

Symptoms relieved from days 4 through 13 of the menstrual cycle"

Thus it requirs both emotional and physical symptoms to be present. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing The above definition states some affective and some somatic symptoms are needed. And that these much not be present in the early part of the cycle. Thus I do not see that your changes to emphasis emotional symptoms is needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

One of the biggest misconceptions about PMS is that purely physical symptoms are PMS. They aren't: cramps (for example) before bleeding starts is "normal" rather than "PMS". This wasn't at all clear before.

It's also important to emphasize the timing, because (e.g.,) ovulatory pain sometimes gets mis-labeled as "premenstrual" by people who ought to know better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The ref seems to indicate that BOTH physical and psychological symptoms are required. But yes agree with the changes. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

"Premenstion"

The text currently says, Menstrual psychosis typically occurs during the premenstion or menstruation. Is this a typo, or an uncommon word? It doesn't look like a valid Latin coinage to me ... in any case, even if the word is correct, we should link it to what it means ... unless it's just another synonym for PMS, in which case I would prefer that we just write PMS. —Soap— 21:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

WikiBlame traces it to [4], with a reference to the same article we currently have it linked to, which is not open-access. However, it is not clear that the terminology derives from the article. —Soap— 18:41, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I decided to change it without having read the paper. Its highly unlikely that it means anything else. Please correct me if Im wrong. —Soap— 16:39, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Were does the ref support this?

"The chief complaint is the temporary and predictable appearance of emotional symptoms, such as irritability or mood changes."

Ref says "is characterized by emotional and physical symptoms that consistently occur during the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle." https://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0415/p1743.html

User:WhatamIdoing I am not seeing it emphasize the emotional symptoms over the physical ones.

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:44, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Then let's find a better source. If you go look at the research, emotional symptoms are a requirement for a PMS diagnosis. If only physical symptoms are present, then you have "normal discomforts of menstruation". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:04, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Alternative medicine

Proposed addition:

Most studies investigating Damask rose have not attempted to determine efficacy specifically for PMS, but instead for some of the individual symptoms of PMS. Damask rose essential oil used during the luteal phase has a small positive effect on PMS symptoms. Supplementation with Damask rose reduces menstruation-related headaches, fatigue, and bloating. Damask rose reduces state anxiety, depression, and stress in adults, though further high-quality randomized controlled trials are needed to draw reliable conclusions regarding this.

3 recent review articles, all listed on PubMed. @Zefr --Isabela31 (talk) 02:35, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

References

All weak sources in low-quality publications, inconsistent with WP:MEDSCI. Listing of a publication on PubMed does not give it high-quality WP:MEDRS status; it is just a listing service. Zefr (talk) 17:37, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Zefr Does Wikipedia have a list of acceptable journals? WP:MEDSCI doesn't have a list. I am following WP:MEDSCI but you keep reverting. --Isabela31 (talk) 19:54, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Math lesson

Several times, someone has tried to make this article gender-neutral. That might be a desirable goal, but it is not good to do this in a way that is factually wrong and innumerate. Please note:

• 80% of women = 40% of people
• 80% of women = 40% of individuals
• 80% of women = much more than 100% of patients experiencing these symptoms

By contrast:

• 80% of people = all the teenagers and all the adults in the world
• 80% of individuals = all the females plus more than half of the males in the world
• 80% of patients = a small fraction of the people experiencing menstrual symptoms

Please don't repeat this error, and please immediately revert any edit that you see that makes this error. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I feel like a middle ground could be found here, especially given that not all women menstruate and not all people who menstruate are women. If we're talking about results from a study and the study specifies women, it would make sense to use that term. However, where we say something like, "Different women experience different symptoms," we could say, "People who menstruate experience different symptoms." This is clear that we're not talking about all people. (Pinging WhatamIdoing) Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 00:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

My message from 2.5 years ago is primarily focused on screwing up statistics. 40% of women is not the same as 40% of people, no matter which definition you prefer for the word women. 40% of women is 20% of people.

I agree that not all women menstruate (no matter which definition you have in mind) and that not all people who menstruate are women (if using the definitions based on gender identity, gender role, or gender expression, though not if using the definition based on physical biology).

I think that in some cases we can sidestep the question of "Which kind of women are we talking about?" by writing things like "Menstrual symptoms vary". That language does not make cis women feel erased and does not make young(er) girls, non-binary AFABs, and trans men feel overlooked. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:41, 9 October 2024 (UTC)