Talk:Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions about Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

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From Norway; Denmark; Iceland; Scotland; England(Bristol etc.); Wales; Ireland; Basques & Others("again",more data)

by Gunnar Thompson

"On DeVirga's map, the northwestern continent is called "Norveca." This title, appearing under the symbol of a crown, identifies the huge land as a province under the sovereignty of Norway. Other maps also show a huge land attached to northern Norway. On the 14th-century Andreas Walsperger map, the region is called "Regnii Norwegie" (the realm of Norway); maps by Sebastian Munster (1532) and Joachim Von Watt (1534) call the region "Septentrio;" a circular map by Battista Agnese 1543 shows "Terra Nova" extending from Norway to the North Pole.

Maps that portray a huge northern territory reflect the 1261 proclamation of King Haakon IV extending Norse sovereignty over all the lands from Norway to the North Pole. The "North Pole" he had in mind was the magnetic--not the geographic pole. A 14th-century writer, Philippe de Mezieres, reported that Norway's overseas realm was so extensive that it took three years for the king's tax collectors to complete their rounds and return to Bergen.

One of the territories that Haakon annexed in a 1262 treaty along with Greenland and Iceland was an otherwise obscure place called landanu or "New Land." The Kongfriget Norges historie (1778) identified an Icelander named Rolf as the discoverer of this New Land--also known as Nyaland--in 1258. It was also identified as part of the North American mainland. Bishop Gissur Einarsson noted that the direction of sailing to Nyaland from Iceland was southwest. In that direction lies Newfoundland and the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

The region had many names that changed over the years as successive waves of Europeans landed on its shores. As late as 1347, Icelanders referred to Newfoundland as "Markland"--which was an ongoing source of lumber. Sailors from Bristol called the coastal isles "the Icelands." Circa 1350, a Spanish Franciscan reported an isle called "Ibernia" in the northwest Atlantic that was under Norse sovereignty. After that date, Bubonic Plague swept through European cities devastating maritime centers. Norway was particularly hard hit--forcing the abandonment of overseas colonies. English, Portuguese, French, German, and Danish merchants fought over the western isles. After 1380, Denmark took control of Greenland, Iceland, and mainland in eastern Canada. The "new" Danish mainland appears on the Claudius Clavus map of 1424 as "Gronlandia Provincia." Thus, the name "Norveca" was already archaic by the early 15th century when it found its way onto DeVirga's map. Portuguese maps of the early 16th century feature the names of Joao Fernandes (The Labrador) and the Corte-Real family along the East Coast of North America..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.113.163.75 (talk) 15:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Gunnar Thompson has also published on Marco Polo’s secret missions to Canada and the ancient Egyptian colonization of Mexico. He has compiled an "Extensive collection of evidence (maps, artifacts, and cultural similarities) of voyages to North America before Columbus, by Phoenicians, Norse, Celts, Britons, Jews, Greeks, Irish, Romans, Japanese, Hindus, Indo-Sumerians, and Chinese. Native Americans are the first discoverers, occupying the Americas for at least 300,000 years." (from the Laura Lee radio show website) He is as reliable a source as Gavin Menzies. He has told me that the word hurricane comes from the ancient Greek. Dougweller (talk) 15:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, the dear Dougweller can claim quite rightly in many cases that the relate of Marco Polo could be speculation, however Gunnar Thompson cites the words of his own reporting and book, book attributed to him, Marco Polo, as a documental source for these claims in the American Pacific coast, as well as indirect sources more speculative on the several centuries later(and even from his time) world maps, wich indicate where the lands designated by the Chinese and by the Venetian-Dalmatian Explorer were.

Pedro-Lisbon

From [1], California State University (Fresno)'s Rehabilitation Counseling Program web page.

"J. Gunnar Thompson, Ph.D. CRC was hired as a full-time lecturer in the program beginning in the Fall semester, 1987. Dr. Thompson received a Master’s Degree inRehabilitation Counseling, a master’s degree in Anthropology, and his doctorate inRehabilitation Psychology from the University of Wisconsin - Madison. During his doctoral program, he assisted George Wright in the development of Total Rehabilitation, a classic rehabilitation textbook. Dr. Thompson’s bachelors degree was in Anthropology and he alternated between Anthropology, Rehabilitation Counseling, and Rehabilitation Education, working as a Rehabilitation Counselor with Traumatic Brain injured, private, for profit WorkersCompensation Rehabilitation, and writing a book (controversial in the field of Anthropology) on the migration of people from China to Mexico in 600 B.C. whose writings and symbols were reflected in the ancient Incan culture. He was forced to leave the University at the start of the 1991 Fall semester when, after being told by the Dean to return for a fifth year as a full-time lecturer in June, he returned only to be told by the Dean that there was not a position for him when he arrived on campus in August. After leaving Fresno State, Dr. Thompson wrote articles and books on his anthropological interests, was Assistant Professor in the RehabilitationCounseling Program at the University of Hawaii for five years, and currently is a rehabilitation counselor at a private, non-profit rehabilitation agency in Port Townsend, Washington."

merge from Fuente Magna

I proposed the AfD for Fuente Magna and my only concern is that it's not even notable enough to be included here. If Fuente Magna is found to be notable enough to survive the AfD then I will support the merge. Simonm223 (talk) 17:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

this doesn't make sense. There is no way "Fuente Magna" is notable enough for a standalone article, but I frankly see no harm in a brief mention of the artefact in this article under "fringe theories". We have a 1985 article in some obscure journal claiming there is "Proto-Sumerian" writing on a pre-Columbian artefact. If this can be mentioned anywhere on Wikipedia, it would probably be in this article under "fringe theories, Mediterranean Anqituity". --dab (𒁳) 20:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I just question if it is notable enough even for that level of mention. Simonm223 (talk) 20:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I hear you, and it is of course your right to question this. My position is that this article can easily accommodate something like

Marini (1985) speculated that the Fuente Bowl, a stone vessel allegedly found in the 1950s by a worker from the CHUA Hacienda near Tiwanaku, Bolivia, exhibits a cuneiform inscription in "Proto-Sumerian".

--dab (𒁳) 13:07, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

And you convinced me over at the AfD discussion. I support the merge.

Richard Amerike & Bristol merchants' Newfoundland discoveries

I could found a lot of into about some 1955-discovered letters in Spain, which all suggest that Bristol sailors DID in fact discover newfoundland some 5-15 years before 1492. The article Richard Amerike certainly seems to support this. - What's actually in these letters? does anyone know? - Is this actually true? - Could anyone bring the two articles in line with the answer please? cos the Amerike article could be misleading. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.86.167.251 (talk) 12:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Archivo de la Casa de Medina Sidonia

Documents discovered by Luisa Isabel Alvarez de Toledo, 21st Duchess of Medina Sidonia in the Archivo de la Casa de Medina Sidonia (one of the most important private archives in Europe going back to the 13th century) are taken by her to prove that some time before Columbus, arab-andalusian or Moroccan sailors traded with ports in Brazil, Guayana and Venezuela. She published this in her books No fuimos nosotros (It wasn't us) and África versus América (Fundación Casa Medina Sidonia).

I would not dare to dismiss the result of years of careful work as one of "lots of ideas like this floating around". --AHert (talk) 12:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Force majeure

Sahara dust being blown across the Atlantic

Some basic thoughts:

Small sailing and rowing boats can cross the Atlantic Ocean, as has been proven many times in the past decades.
Many sailing boats founder in storms, yet it is well known that some small sailing boats have survived heavy storms.
It is known that shipwrecked sailors have survived many weeks on the sea.

Then, it appears to be compelling to assume that from time to time one or the other boat has been blown from Africa across the ocean to (South) America, whether they were Phoenician, Arab, African, or other boats. Those who were not killed stayed on, if they liked it. Others will have tried to get home and if they succeeded, nobody will have believed their story - or will have kept it secret.

It would be nice if some evidence would be found, but I consider it wrong to argue that there were no pre-Columbian crossings just because no evidence has been found. --AHert (talk) 12:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, we shouldn't be arguing about it ourselves either here or in the article, the article is meant to report what reliable sources say. Of course it's possible. A return journey wouldn't necessarily work due to currents and winds. Dougweller (talk) 13:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)