Talk:Prayer to Saint Michael

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Untitled

The original prayer is written in Latin, not Italian.

Word choice. Thrust verses Banish

You should note that similarity and differences between these two words in the prayer...

Banish in the more preferred one... (maybe that is the problem ;) ) --Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 00:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC) "Thrust" is a more literal translation of "detrude". Lima (talk) 05:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anthony Cekada

Are the views of this one particular theologian so influential as to warrant its own section? He's referenced as if a casual Wiki reader ought to know his name offhand. I don't. Who is he? Some context would be nice. --Puddingpie (talk) 05:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Puddingpie, Thanks for bringing that up. In fact, I had not paid attention and not really noticed that section. So I checked, and you are right that he is not a notable authority on the Catholic Church. Instead, that gentleman is an excommunicated priest and has a Wikipedia page under Anthony Cekada. Moreover, the single source for that section is not a "reliable third party source known for fact checking" and hence fails to meet Wikipedia guidelines. I will therefore delete that material. There was also a section on 20th century rumors that has no working reference (prev link is dead) and I tagged it. If no references for a while, it needs to be deleted. Cheers History2007 (talk) 06:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't shoot the messenger. Lima (talk) 14:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, thanks for adding references. Now it looks more credible. And it all started to get better because Puddingpie asked the question. Cheers History2007 (talk) 15:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You realize, I suppose, that I did little more than extract the references from Cekada's article. Lima (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, I had not noticed that. In that case, I guess one needs to check if those references hod together anyway. But at least you opened the avenue for further research now, rather than a single link that was there before. Do you think those references are reliable? History2007 (talk) 17:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do. I have read one or two more of his writings on the Internet. When he cites a document, he does so in what seems scholarly fashion. Many of his arguments are based on highly questionable undocumented initial premises such as that Benedict XVI is a heretic! But I trust his citations of documents. Am I naive? Read him and see for yourself. Lima (talk) 18:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you think the refs are reliable enough, I will go along. You probably know more theology than I do. But I will not spend time reading him, for the whole issue of the stories about the prayer are tangential to my interest. In any case, thanks for spending time to clean up. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

Two sections of this article are really "reference free". The section on "Popular culture" has zero references. What if someone just typed some of this material as a joke? How can one verify it? Unless references are added here, I will have to delete it in a few days. History2007 (talk) 06:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No refs at all after a month. Has to go. History2007 (talk) 00:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Exact words

There have been two versions of this prayer here with slightly different words, e.g. be our Protection vs be our SafeGuard and cast vs thrust etc. I had actually known this prayer years ago with Safeguard and cast (so that version has also been in use for a while I am sure) but in the Raccolta page 340, it clearly uses Protection etc. so I think we should leave it as such. History2007 (talk) 20:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Footnote 20 cites something published by TAN books in 1973, "the year in which the film The Exorcist appeared." It would seem equally noteworthy that 1973 also saw the release of American Graffiti, Charlotte's Web, and Battle for the Planet of the Apes. Mannanan51 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)mannanan51[reply]

Clarifying prayers

I agree (from personal experience) that the 1886 prayer is much more widely known, but from where can we cite that information in a form acceptable to Wikipedia?

I introduced the labels '1886 prayer' etc as an NPOV way of referring to the different prayers so I could link to it from Of Exorcisms and Certain Supplications. I will respect the current labels as adequate.

Is the Consecration to St Michael one of the prayers prohibited or approved by the Vatican? Revd Dr Gareth Leyshon - User Gleyshon (talk) 01:26, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your intervention.

On your first query, would The Catholicism Answer Book: The 300 Most Frequently Asked Questions, p. 164 be sufficient, though not perfect? It could be combined with Pope John Paul II's words on 24 April 1994 (English translation here and here). Is any other prayer referred to as the Prayer to Saint Michael?

I think that the prayers that Opus Sanctorum Angelorum presents today, after the 2010 clarification, are certainly not Church-condemned prayers. Esoglou (talk) 06:51, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On the first point thank you, but no - an assertion that the 1886 prayer was said by all Catholics at Mass does not explicitly indicate that it is better known than another prayer not mentioned at all in the same source.

On the second point, you give two references to the Consecration to St Michael; the latter is not an official OA site. I have briefly looked through the first site referenced to find an explicit statement of approval for the prayer, but no. When then there has been controversy, if websites are managed by well-meaning volunteers not fully aware of the past controversies, it is quite possible for something beloved by a person from before the changes to be posted in a well-meaning gesture. I can find mention that the Vatican approved a "consecration to the angels" but a prayer of that description would not be a consecration specifically to St Michael. I will only be satisfied when I find a source with the consecration prayer AND a statement of Vatican approval on the same page. None of this stops the actual prayer being listed on the wiki page; to set in in context it should have a note saying that is is OK'd, or disapproved, by the Vatican. Revd Dr Gareth Leyshon - User Gleyshon (talk) 07:49, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that any Wikipedia-reliable source explicitly states that the Prayers After Mass prayer is better known than the other; but perhaps, on "the sky is blue" grounds, we can take it that a prayer that "used to be said by Catholics at the end of Mass" and that a pope has recommended for continued use is indeed better known than one that I, for one, never heard of until I met with it on Wikipedia. I have nothing more to say on that matter.

Nor have I anything to add on what in my view is the well-founded presumption that a prayer now given on the official website of an association now approved by the Holy See is not a Church-condemned prayer. (The interesting second citation was given only as colour.) Esoglou (talk) 14:49, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unfounded claim on Leo's vision

Pope Leo did not reveal the contents of his vision to anyone. So any accounts of it - Jesus talking to Satan, dark clouds forming over the Vatican, etc. - are false. Thus I deleted this part of the article, the last paragraph of which only repeats information already provided:

"Sadly, like most practices and doctrines suppressed after the Second Vatican Council, those not exercised on a regular basis quickly become forgotten. It would be too bold to outright ban such practices, however by deeming them optional, people will ultimately abandon them over time. Pope Leo XIII had good reason to institute this prayer which he wrote after a vision he received while praying after Mass on one occasion:

Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the above prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere.

When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices – two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church." The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so." Satan: "To do so, I need more time and more power." Our Lord: "How much time? How much power? Satan: "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service." Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will."

In 1886, Pope Leo XIII decreed that this prayer to St. Michael be said at the end of "low" Mass (not "high", or sung Masses) throughout the universal Church, along with the Salve Regina (Hail, Holy Queen); and the practice of the congregation praying these prayers at the end of Mass continued until the introduction of the new rite of the mass.^[1]"

Oct13 (talk) 21:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://www.michaeljournal.org/visionleo.asp

Translation

"The best-known English translation is that which was used in Ireland and is quoted in James Joyce's novel Ulysses."

Best known by whom? I've already added a ^{[by whom?]} tag in the article. But as a Catholic, I would say that Joyce's version is not the best known English translation. In fact, I have not to my knowledge ever once heard anybody praying it in a way much similar to Joyce's translation.

Granted, there does seem to be quite a bit of variety between the way people pray it. (And I know that the article already acknowledges this.) But the most commonly used translations are relatively literal, whereas Joyce's translation is a bit freer/more poetic.

But I guess what I'm wondering is, wouldn't it be more appropriate (at least for the purposes of this article) to use a translation that's closer to the Latin, or at least to the way English-speaking Catholics actually pray it? I don't know if there are any official English vernacular Novus Ordo translations, but there is an English translation in the (unofficial/non-authoritative) 1962 missal booklet used by many TLM parishes. They translate it thus:

Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray: and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the wicked spirits, who roam through the world, seeking the ruin of souls. ℟. Amen.^[1]

73.133.224.40 (talk) 13:28, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References