Talk:Praetoria of Constantinople

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Launchballer talk 22:29, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Theodorus and Theophanes

... that in the Praetorium of Constantinople the brothers Theodorus and Theophanes (pictured) had twelve iambic verses branded on their forehead and torso?

Source: Senina (2008), pp. 267-268

Reviewed: Red Sea mangroves
Comment: I will do the QPQ asap.

Created by Alessandro57 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 83 past nominations.

Alex2006 (talk) 16:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

@Alessandro57: You still need to provide a QPQ as it has been over two weeks since the nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:03, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Narutolovehinata5: you are right, sorry, QPQ done. Alex2006 (talk) 05:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: AGF on non-English sources, although was able to verify the basic facts elsewhere. Only concern would be the last sentence of the introduction: "At least two buildings with this function existed in the city". It is unclear if this is talking about jails, or places where the prefect dispensed justice. @Alessandro57: - Are you able to address this? CSJJ104 (talk) 16:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, @CSJJ104:, it wasn't clear, thanks. Updated everywhere with sources. Alex2006 (talk) 11:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alessandro57: Reading this with the recent additions, is the article intended to cover both buildings, or just the one? If it's covering both then possibly it should be moved to Praetoria of Constantinople, otherwise the article should make clear which building it covers. CSJJ104 (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo @CSJJ104:, your concern has been addressed: article moved to plural. Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Performed a copyedit on the lead, but otherwise good to go. I assume good faith on the non-English sources. CSJJ104 (talk) 17:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that I've nominated the image for deletion. All that means is that this can't become the lead hook; no other issues. Schwede 66 06:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alessandro57 and CSJJ104: Senina 2008 pp.267–268 does not verify that the branding took place within the Praetoria, and as a translation of a primary source it is not a reliable source for the hook. Meanwhile, Janin 1950 is pushing the limits of WP:RSAGE, so unless it is watertight (could you please supply a quote that supports the hook) I think a new hook might be needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also noting that the image was kept.--Laun chba ller 16:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: WP:RSAGE does not really apply here; this is a historical article, where the narrative part of history, which relies on medieval sources, is not liable to change much. The only developments could be the discovery and publication of major written sources or archaeological excavations, but the former hasn't been the case and the latter is unlikely to happen given that the sites lie at the heart of Istanbul, where only major infrastructure projects like the subway have led to extensive archaeological discoveries. In summary, Janin is still very much a WP:RS and valid for this topic, as can be seen by its still frequent use in 21st-century scholarly works. Constantine ✍ 10:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cplakidas I trust your judgement re. RSAGE, but would still like to see a quote. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AirshipJungleman29 Thanks for pointing this out. I'm not actually able to access Senina 2008 and didn't notice the issue. Can I check though, is your objection purely to its use to cite the hook, or should the article also be updated? CSJJ104 (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot for your supplement of review and your comments, @AirshipJungleman29: , @CSJJ104: ,@Cplakidas:.Unfortunately I find myself since a week in the Poli and I have neither a PC with me(I am writing on a phone :-((() nor Janin (btw, for this article I have been forced to use the 1950 edition because the 1964 revised edition was borrowed by someone else). I agree with Constantine that for this kind of articles one has to rely heavily upon the primary sources, because it is all that we have. Anyway, I added another online secondary source to the text (Abschnitt V.17, unfortunately in German), and I hope that this will solve the problem. Cheers from Istanbul, Alex2006 (talk) 06:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I genuinely can't work out what this needs another reviewer for.--Laun chba ller 17:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo @Launchballer:, does not it mean that the issue has been addressed? Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 14:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, that symbol is used when either a second opinion is sought (e.g. Yang Jingru (speed skater)) or new reviewer is requested such as for the reviewer's hook (e.g. Jump (Tyla, Gunna and Skillibeng song)). What you need in this instance is for @AirshipJungleman29: to confirm whether he is satisfied with the sourcing.--Laun chba ller 19:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I used ping, but none came til now...Alex2006 (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No Alessandro57, the De Gruyter source still does not verify the hook. To repeat what I said above, it needs to verify "that the branding took place within the Praetoria". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... mmmh, in this case I propose the following hook:

ALT1: ... that in the Praetorium of Constantinople the Eparch ordered the brothers Theodorus and Theophanes (pictured) to be branded with twelve iambic verses on their forehead and torso?

What do You think about it, AirshipJungleman29? Alex2006 (talk) 05:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still not verified by the source, unless I have missed the relevant sentence. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is, AirshipJungleman29."Nach einem erneuten Verhör, diesmal beim Eparchen...habe der Eparch die Durchführung der von Theophilos verhängten Strafe angeordnet und am 18. Juli 836 T. und Theodoros die zwölf Verse in ihre Gesichter schreiben lassen". About 'forehead and torso', there is Janin:"l'empereur leur fit graver au fer rouge sur le front et sur la poitrine douze vers iambiques..." "L'eparque les fit comparaitre devant lui." in the chapter about the Praetorium, which was the place where the Eparch dispensed justice. Alex2006 (talk) 03:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is still no verification that the sentencing happened in the Praetorium. You seem to have read "the Praetorium was where the Eparch dispensed justice" and "the Eparch ordered these men be branded" and assumed that the latter happened in the Praetorium—but that is WP:SYNTH, forbidden on WP. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The praetorium is where the Eparch lived and dispensed justice, so there is no reason to assume that this happened somewhere else. De Gruyter affirms that the two are imprisoned in the praetorium, then the Eparch bring them to the emperor, then there is another court hearing in front of the Eparch. A court hearing usually takes place in a court building, not in the middle of the road. This is independently confirmed by Janin, which is a RS too. In his book, Janin organizes all the information referenced in the article in a chapter named "The Praetorium" (the building), not "The Eparch" (the office). This means that everything described there, like: "L'eparque les fit comparaitre devant lui", unless another place is explicitly mentioned, happens in the praetorium, not somewhere else. And WP:SYNTH doesn't apply here, because we have two reliable sources, so there is no valid reason to refuse ALT1. Anyway, I think it is time to ask for a second reviewer, Launchballer. The review should concern only ALT1. Thanks for your time. Alex2006 (talk) 05:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The praetorium is where the Eparch lived and dispensed justice, so there is no reason to assume that this happened somewhere else." Pure WP:SYNTH. You need a source confirming precisely what the hook says. I have found an online copy of Janin 1950: that also has three non-verifying distinct statements (1. Under Theophilus the two brothers Theodore and Theophanes were also imprisoned in the praetorium. 2. called Grapti because the emperor had twelve iambic verses of his composition engraved with a hot iron on their foreheads and chests. 3. The bishop had them appear before him”.)

This nomination has reached the two-month limit—I am marking it as rejected. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]