Talk:Porteous family

Fictional Porteouses

There have been many examples of fictitious characters named Porteous. It seems unfair to single out one (albeit by a renowned author) and, in any case, it has no place here in an article about the history of a real historic family. – Agendum 14:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC) La famille des porteous s'est battue contre les mac Arthure d'1874 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.46.55.253 (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Porteous/Porteus family in Lincolnshire

The Porteous family originated in Scotland and there is no record of it ever having been from Lincolnshire.

Generally, the Porteus spelling of the name is used by some branches of the original family, especially in Northern Ireland and by emigrant families to the USA/Canada – although some believe that this spelling of the name has a completely separate origin, and may be connected with the Portas family in Lincolnshire.

This article is about the Scottish Porteous family, and I have therefore deleted mention of any Lincolnshire origin. – Agendum (talk) 18:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this page as part of personal research I am puzzled about the comments made. There is clear documented and published proof of the evolution of the Portas spelling found in Lincolnshire evolving to Porteus and taking the name to the USA.Also, at what point does a Scottish Porteous become an English Porteus as in the case of Bielby Porteus? OUuser (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Born in York , educated in England and died in London.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Chivalrousancestors (talk • contribs) 22:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

There is certainly evidence of Portas families in Lincolnshire and, as you say, some of these eventually changed their name to Porteus and other variant spellings before or after emigrating to Canada and the US. I think the jury is still out as to whether these have any historic connection with the Scottish Porteous family (some of whom also changed their name to Porteus when they emigrated to Ireland and other British colonies).

The situation is complex and there appears to be little proof either way, as yet. Although there are researchers with whom I am in contact who are particularly interested in these families. I would be interested in corresponding with anyone who is researching either of these lines – you can contact me privately through the link at the foot of my User page. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 11:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Beilby Porteus

Déreque Porteous Franco-Ecossais s'est marier avec une française nommer Janine Auge. Celà a créé une nouvelle filliale de porte ous en France (nord pas de calais et Paris) :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.46.55.253 (talk) 18:02, 10 February 2015 (UTC) The recent information regarding Bishop Beilby Porteus has no place in what is intended purely as a list of historical family members sharing the same name, rather than a mini-biography or career outline. Also, the date of death given was totally wrong – probably good to check your facts in a reliable biography first.– Cheers, Bruce Agendum (talk) 22:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Quote was taken directly from http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/porteus-beilby.html. Not totally wrong just a disagreement over the year which is frequently seen in genealogical studies. Chivalrousancestors (talk) 20:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have considerable personal interest in the life of Bishop Porteus, who was one of the most distinguished members of Family No 6, so it’s good to find someone else who feels similarly.

My comment above was only intended to point out that this article is about the Porteous/Porteus Family rather than individuals. But there is a Wikipedia article specifically about Bishop Porteus.

Unfortunately, the Preterist Archive is one of those sites that gathers information from other online sources (including Wikipedia), without first checking them, and chucks them all together. If you check the first page on Beilby Porteus, it gives two different years of death. Unfortunately this is the sort of problem that is rife on the Web, as one poorly-sourced article will copy another, etc. The date of his death was 13 May 1809, and I have checked this in the most reliable sources. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 11:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Migration

The ports from which Porteous families which emigrated can be seen on many of the websites that are now available on the Web. Records show that some left from Scotland, of course; but others first made the trip to London, Liverpool, Bristol, Hull or Southampton (to name but a few). Others crossed the Irish Sea to settle in County Fermanagh. Agendum (talk) 12:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above - British Isles is far more inclusive and makes much more sense. TharkunColl (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hardly any surprise there, but it's all WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH without the references to back it up. --HighKing (talk) 16:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you post some of the references here please? --Bardcom (talk) 13:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

And it also happens to be consensus as well. Please stop pushing your agenda. TharkunColl (talk) 16:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

They emigrated from the British Isles. We've had this debate before, in early June. I provided a reference that showed how they emigrated mainly from Scotland but also from N. Ireland and in one case from England. This website confirms some emigrated from Ireland - [1]. My reference has now been lost on the version of 4th June. Although references might not say "the family emigrated from the British Isles" or similar words, I think even at Wikipedia it's a reasonable inference, given the evidence of where they did emigrate from. CarterBar (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

CarterBar, your reference does not back up the claim. It says that people emigrated *to* England and Ireland. And the inference is not reasonable to claim that they migrated from the British Isles - that is WP:SYNTH and/or WP:OR. Would you be willing to submit these queries on sources, etc, to WP:NORN ?? --HighKing (talk) 16:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

There you go again, rejecting all references that don't fit your agenda. TharkunColl (talk) 16:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

From the website - "Of the migrants to the Americas between 1775 and 1900, no fewer than 34 (26% of the total during that period) were from Northern Ireland – PORTEUS family members, mostly from the area around Enniskillen and Drumadown in County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland - the majority had probably migrated as a result of the opportunities afforded by the newly-independent United States, and roughly a third left in the years immediately following the Irish Potato Famine of 1846–51.

Many of the Irish emigrants went to the townships of Canada or to the US, including Indiana (the progenitors of the PORTTEUS branch) and Pickford Township, Michigan (the PORTICE branch) as well as to New York, California and Ohio. Others emigrated to New Zealand and Tasmania, Australia.

It is interesting to note that, during the eighteenth century only one Porteous emigrant came from England, increasing to six during the nineteenth and peaking at 23 (45% of the total) during the twentieth century. This is consistent with an initially gradual southwards movement of Scottish Lowland families during the mid-nineteenth century, increasing dramatically in the period after the Scottish Clearances and the coming of industrialisation in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries." CarterBar (talk) 16:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, look at the list of places they emigrated from - [2] CarterBar (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi CarterBar. Thank you for responding and for digging up this. The problem I have is that the text in question states:

Over 1.7 million people left Scotland from 1846 to 1852, primarily going to Nova Scotia and Canada

Note that it states that they left Scotland. The context of the paragraph concerns the Highland Potato Famine of 1836–37. It does not make any sense to state that they left Scotland in vast numbers from ports all over the British Isles.

I am not trying to say that some of them didn't make it to England or Ireland, and I'm not trying to say that some didn't eventually emigrate to Nova Scotia, etc. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 23:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Scottish migrants did indeed board ship from ports such as Liverpool, Newcastle, Belfast and Bristol, etc - such was the rush to emigrate when the times were so tough and there was the promise of a new life, jobs and easy money on the other side of the Atlantic. Comparatively few transatlantic vessels seem to have left from Glasgow and the other Scottish ports of the Western Isles (although some did, of course, sometimes calling in to Irish ports on the way).

The sheer scale of this emigration is hard for us to comprehend. We are talking about millions of people – things were that bad.

For some it was a question of life and death, for others it was the promise of opportunities to obtain their own land and create their own fortune, instead of slaving away for others in the factories of Glasgow or northern England - so they were prepared to do whatever it took. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Agendum/Bruce. A few points. Logically, it isn't possible to leave Scotland from Belfast or Liverpool. As I've said above, I'm not doubting that Scottish people didn't make it to England or Ireland, but they didn't emigrate from Scotland from an Irish port or an English port. Secondly, this website lists the ships that departed for Nova Scotia and Canada during the highland clearances, and contrary to your point that few transatlantic vessels left, there appears to be a considerable number. For example, the "Hector" left from Loch Broom for Nova Scotia in 1772. The ship "Brilliant" departed from Aberdeen on April 12, 1842, headed for Quebec. The "Hercules" sailed from Campbeltown in 1853, bound for Australia. The "Georgiana" sailed from Greenock, 13 July 1852. Also, ships from Aberdeen or Dundee would stop at Cromarty on the Black Isle before sailing to Canada (if a sufficient number of passengers sent an early application) and nearly 40 are listed - and that's just to Canada. I believe that under these circumstances and without references to show otherwise, you will consider reverting the text, or possibly you can explain further why the article should remain as you have left it. I'll wait a short while to give you a chance to respond. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 14:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

No sweat, HighKing – I'm happy to leave it at that for the time being. In due course I'll provide evidence (some of which is admittedly original research) together with other references. I think the list of vessels on that website (which is really only about the Highland Clearances), fascinating as it is, gives only a very tiny part of the overall picture. The emigration of Scottish families from Scotland lasted over two hundred years, and there were peaks and troughs according to the social and historical situation at any given time.

I'm glad that someone else is sufficiently interested to want to write about this fascinating period. Can I ask whether you have any direct or indirect interest in the Porteous/Porteus family? Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 16:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Agendum, I'm very interested in history, mostly UK and Ireland, with a special interest in my own family genealogy. I confess that I'm not directly interested in the Porteus/Porteous family other than that general interest. I'll revert the article for now, seeing as you've nothing more to add at this time, but feel free to change when you've got the references. Thank you and good luck with the research. --HighKing (talk) 17:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)