Talk:Port of Dover Police

Jurisdiction

Can anyone shed some light on the claim that Ports of Dover Police have wider jurisdiction than the legislation states i.e. up to 1 mile from the port. This article and the Port Police website itself claim that due to buildings being owned by the port authority throughout Dover their jurisdicition extends from each building up to 1 mile i.e. covering most of Dover and surrounding area. This appears to be different to other port forces established under the same legislation. It doesn't seem logical either, otherwise if the Dover port authority owned a building in say, London this view of the legislation would mean that Port of Dover police officers would have jurisdiction in London at that building and up to a mile around it! This is clearly not the case and I have edited the article until someone can point to some clarification. Dibble999 (talk) 17:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Eh? The law says "the limits of the harbour, dock, pier, and premises of the undertakers, and within one mile of the same". That's quite clear... ninety:one 17:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact, this was discussed time ago and another editor reached much the same conclusion... ninety:one 17:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, this has been discussed before! I have the greatest respect for Dibble999, who is an experienced editor, and also has professional insight (in the wider sense) here; however, we have to approach this with common sense. One editor believes his interpretation of the Law is correct; balanced against this is the alternative interpretation of that Law by other editors AND the unambiguous statement of the Port of Dover Police on their own official website AND the actual operational practices of Port of Dover Police (which are clearly observable to anyone who lives, or has lived, in that place (myself included)). This article must represent what actually happens, and what the original sources state. If Port of Dover Police are operating unlawfully in Dover (and have been doing so for so many years) then it is very odd that they have not been challenged by Kent Police, or indeed by the Home Office, to whose scrutiny they choose voluntarily to submit. I'm therefore going to restore the text recently removed from the article. I can't see any objection to an alternative view also being placed in the article, although it would need to be worded carefully, so as not to be simply one editor's POV or legal interpretation. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 08:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Have updated the article after locating further information on the web re this police service Dibble999 (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

My edit in removing said paragraph may have been rash, for which I apologise. However, I'll try and better explain better what I mean: As I understand it, the 1847 Act gives the officers jurisdiction within the limits of the harbour, dock, pier and premises of the undertakers (i.e. Dover Harbour Board). I fully understand that the board controls a large area of land along the coast of Dover and that means whithin it and up to 1 mile of that land is PDP officer jurisdiction. I also understand that as the port area is large I would imagine much of Dover is within this mile.

However my point is the section which is quoted from the PDPs own website that states "the Board owns property in various parts of the town this effectively means that the Port of Dover Police has the ability to exercise police powers over a wide area, often many miles from the Port itself." This seems to me to go beyond the meaning of the Act and if were correct would result in bizarre circumstances which I cannot see happening. I.e. as per my original comments - if this were truly correct, if the Dover Harbour Board owned a premises in Carlisle, are we suggesting PDP officers would have jurisdiction in Carlisle and a mile around this wayward premises?!

The title of the Act and the it intention in Parliament was to set up bodies of constables to police ports. As I read it, the limit is the boundary of the port estate and up to a mile from that boundary. Not any building miles away from the port itself.

Here is some stuff I think supports this:

1. This first one is a report that was done linked from the PDP site itself. Its states on page 10 under jurisdiction, "A port police constable has the full powers and privileges of a constable within the port estate and for a 1 mile radius. They do not necessarily have full police powers, as there are several recent enactments bestowing powers on police that are specific in their definitions as to exclude any constables other than those of Home Office police forces." [1] This very interesting report then goes on to outline the obvious difficulties this presents to ports officers. (I don't envy them!)

2. The Department for Transport reviewed Ports Police last year and I've quoted a few sections (can be found at [2]. In the report all the ports police services are outlined in some detail. Apart from Dover, not one seeks to propose that it has jurisdiction outside of the port estate and 1 mile limit (certain ports police are obviously established under different acts). The report under Jurisdiction states "Section 79 of the HDPC Act 1847, where adopted, provides that the jurisdiction of the port police is generally limited to the port area and one mile beyond. This geographical limit is echoed in Schedule 2 of the Harbours Act 1964 under which ports can seek the power to request the appointment of constables on nomination from a Justice of the Peace."

3. As a comparison, here are some details from other ports police forces set up under the same act as PDP (these can all be found in above link in the annex section:

Port of Bristol Police - "Although the PoBP possess constabulary powers for up to one mile outside the port’s limits, in practice their remit is to concentrate on policing the port area."

Port of Felixstowe Police - "The establishment of the Police Department and use of the HDPCA created a Statutory Police force with full constabulary powers within the Dock estate and up to one mile from its boundary."

Portland Port Police - "The Port Police force was created under legislation that drew upon the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847 and is funded entirely by the commercial activities of the Port Authority. s of Portland Harbour and up The force is dedicated to protecting the port, its tenants and customers situated at the dock estate of Portland Port in Dorset, and within the limit to a mile outside."

And finally the PDP entry in this report states - "Officers have full police powers on any land owned by Dover Harbour Board and at any place within one mile of such land. In addition to the main ferry terminal (the busiest passenger seaport in Europe), Dover Harbour Board owns and operates a marina, two cruise terminals, a three star hotel, a retail shopping outlet and a large number of private residential properties. Added to this is a large recreational area of beach and promenade which results in a high level of contact and interaction with the public that is not generally a feature of policing at other British seaports."

PDP themselves do not quote 'any premises' but any any land owned by Dover Harbour Board in their own definition jurisdiction i.e. within the limits of the port. I'm not local but would suggest that the buildings mentioned are all within the boundaries of the port land and would come within PDP jurisdiction.

But, I submit, PDP jurisdiction does not extend to satellite buildings miles from the port which the article at present suggests.

Any thoughts? Dibble999 (talk) 19:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I echo Timothy's sentiments. Dibble, whilst you present a logical argument; the fact is that the letter of the law could permit them to exercise their powers, regardless of the spirit of the law, and the PDP website specifically states that they do so. Your best option is to write to them and ask for clarification, because when it comes to personal opinion vs. a reliable source, we have to choose the latter. ninety:one 20:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair comment. Its an interesting legal area anyway! Dibble999 (talk) 21:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Interesting note: in S2, which is the interpretation section, "harbour dock and pier" has a special meaning, namely "the harbour, dock, or pier, and the works connected therewith, by the special Act authorized to be constructed". Further, there is another special meaning; namely "the prescribed limits" which means "the distance measured from the harbour, dock, or pier, or other local limits (if any) beyond the harbour, dock, or pier, within which the powers of the harbour master, dock master, or pier master, for the regulation of the harbour dock, or pier, shall by the special Act be authorized to be exercised". I think that if they intended the constable to be limited to the actual port area, they would have just used one of those two and not added "and premises" on the end of the sentence in S79. We'll never know though! ninety:one 21:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Have updated the article after locating further information on the web re this police service Dibble999 (talk) 22:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)