Talk:Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria/Archive 1

Nonsensical sentence

The news of the day summary for this says "Pope Theodorus was elected Pope.... " which is, in English, a nonsensical sentence. It should read "Archbishop Theodorus was elected Pope.... " ( or whatever his previous title is ).Eregli bob (talk) 19:32, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now it says "Theodoros II of Alexandria is selected Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church.", which is the same thing, as he became "of Alexandria" only upon election as Pope. СЛУЖБА (talk) 10:55, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Please continue discussion in the #Requested move section below. DrKiernan (talk) 08:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why is his name rendered as Theodoros here? The media refer to him by his Arabic name Tawadros. It would also make sense to anglicize his name as Theodore (although I have yet to see a source that does so), but why the Greek form Theodoros? Vernoeming (talk) 11:59, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Someone just added that the Coptic form of his name is Θeodoros. if that is true, Theodoros would make sense. Vernoeming (talk) 12:33, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, Theodoros is the Coptic-Greek form of his name, and hence entirely proper. I would not object to calling him Theodore, the same way the Pope of Rome is Benedict rather than the Latin Benedictus, but I am happy that the Coptic-Greek form has been used here. InfernoXV (talk) 12:57, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the name should not be based or our preferences, but reflect the way he is presented by sources. All the souses in the article refer to him as Tawadros II, so I think Theodoros is original research and the name should be as the sources give it: Tawadros II. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 14:46, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The media reference and preference should not be the basis on the newly elected patriarch's English name. If an anglicized name is available, then it would make more sense to use this since this is common policy in proper English. His name should be referenced as Theodore with a reference "commonly known as Tawadros". It should be noted that Tawadros is not the Arabic name of Theodoros. Tadros is the Arabicized form. Tawadros is the old Coptic pronunciation frequently found in Arabic sources. The current Coptic pronunciation is Theodoros. If we use either Coptic version instead of an equivalent English or anglicized version, then we should change the names for all the Coptic popes in "List for Coptic Popes" page and use their popular names instead of the anglicized names. This would result in changing nearly every name. I would like to add that in Lists of popes from other churches, such as the Ecumenical patriarchate, only use anglicized names where one exists. There should be consistency across Wikipedia. Remnkemi (talk) 19:05, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, for me Wikipedia is about sources not opinions. All the top sources give Tawadros. I requested a page move. Please continue discussion below. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 15:17, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The name Theodoros is the correct name for the newly elected Pope of Alexandria, it is a fact and not an opinion. When the media is using the name Tawadros, it is because regretably the Christian Egyptians, in their majority have indavertly contributed in this sad deterioration of the name and for that matter other names too. Linguistical accuracy is of their least concern due to several factors, including ignorance and lack of interest and laziness in proper articulation of words, especially names. The Hierarch's name is Greek in origin, it is written and pronounced Theodoros in both Greek and Coptic languages and is also written as such in proper Arabic tranlations (See Hierarchs or Saints names within the Orthodox Churches, written as pronounced in its original language). The elected Pope was consecrated by the previous Pope and given the name Tawadros due to the popular (sadly) pronounciation of the name in Egypt, but when he is elected to the Throne of Alexandria, proper respect of the original name should be in order, especially that the Church's language has the name written as Theodoros. The Media will publish whatever is given to her, if the Church stresses on the proper pronounciation of the name, then the Media will abide.Orthopraxia (talk) 01:05, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What I think you are saying is that the sources are wrong. For me this is not how Wikipedia works. I think what you say is a "fact" would have to be considered an opinion as it is contradicted by top sources, see WP:NOTTRUTH, Wikipedia:Verifiability. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 10:54, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Assertions

I have removed some debatable and divisive text to talk for discussion. In any case, it shouldn't be a main point of discussion in biography of this pope if four other popes suffered the same "flaws" as the writer Sami al Masri claims. The text moved is this:

Quote:
"A segment of members of the Coptic church, however, argued that the choice of Theodoros II as Pope (and Bishop) of Alexandria is not canonical, as Tawadros was already a bishop (although without a diocese), arguably violating Canon 15 of the Council of Nicea against the translation of bishops from one See to another. This issue caused a dispute in the Coptic Orthodox Church ongoing since 1928. Since the 1960s, the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church considers the General Bishops to be secretaries to the Pope with the degree of a Bishop. Pope Theodoros II is the fifth bishop to become a pope, with earlier cases including Popes John XIX, Macarius III, Joseph II and Shenouda III.
Unquote

Source:

The source quoted (Al Hiwar al Mutamadden) is a site that has the slogan "Leftist, laic and democratic" where various "elite" writers put their personal opinions. With my knowledge of Arabic and as a journalist, I can vouch that this specific article is written from a very personal point of view. The terminology used is so charged it shows clear partisanship. Here just one quotation of too many that shows how clear POV this article is:

Quote:
انحرفت بمسار الكنيسة بصورة أكثر ضررا بالصالح العام. وبالأسف قاد المسار الكنسي للانحراف بعض المثقفين الذين كان منوط بهم القيام بالإصلاح الكنسي المنشود بحسب ما نادوا وطالبوا وعلموا في الماضي القريب. لكن عندما خطف أبصارهم بريق السلطة أعمي عيونهم عن الحق فتمرغوا في وحل المخالفة إلي قمة الرأس.
Unquote

Another quotation just to show the mindset of the writer: Quote:
لقد كان صراع الأمس بين أربعة شخصيات فقط -أبونا متى المسكين، الأنبا غريغوريس، الأنبا صموئيل، والأنبا شنودة- والمفروض انهم كانوا أكثر اتزانا وتحضرا من مصارعي اليوم. الاثنان الأولان منهم حاولا أن يخرجا خارج حلبة الصراع من اليوم الأول، ورغم ذلك استمر وطيس الحرب دائرا لمدة بلغت خمسون عاما، وحتى اليوم لم تهمد إوارها بعد. فماذا سيكون الموقف بين مصارعي اليوم الذي يزيد عددهم عن الثلاثين؟!!!!!
Unquote

Also notice the five exclamation marks...

This is hardly a reliable source to quote in a serious matter like this. Checking other articles published by the same writer (Sami al Masri) on this site reinforces my impression that almost all articles he publishes here are very clear POVs that represents more a personal opinion than academic bare facts. werldwayd (talk) 13:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC) werldwayd (talk) 13:29, 5 November 2012 (UTC) werldwayd (talk) 13:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article. Please take this article to the German Wikipedia! Wikipedia:Signatureunsigned comment added by Schn77 21:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date

Since the article was created 2 days ago, a new source has been added for his date and birth place. Its likely a take from WP. Can we g et other sourceS? Prefereably Egyptian/Copt? [1]Lihaas (talk) 02:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Views of the pope section

In section "Views and issues", I had removed and someone reinstated this "gem" as point of view of a pope: "In regards to the 2011 Egyptian revolution, Theodoros II said the uprising was a turning point in terms of the church's relations with the youth. Amongst his first tasks is the issue of Egypt's changing landscape with a new a constitution and more independent-minded congregants who seek their demands outside the church in dealing with the state." -- This is just some "journalistic drivel" that has no relevance and in no way is the official views of the pope or his church, but just some Western analytic interpretation of a news agency piece that suddenly becomes "official papal policy" through selective editing in what was probably a very long interview. I read this caption ten times, twenty times, and it just means no sense to me, it just serves to fill in some space in a biography to make it look more exciting, bulky and "contemporary". Read it weeks or months from now and you will realise how futile these comments are werldwayd (talk) 02:12, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The use of both "in regards to" and "in terms of" are bad enough, but their incorporation in the same sentence is an achievement of sorts. They have been removed, but the next sentence surely needs more work. What is the "issue" with the "changing landscape"; what is that landscape, and why is this issue-- whatever it is-- among the new pope's tasks? The last part, about congregants "seek[ing] their demands", also needs clarification.

It looks like parts of the AP article on which part of this page is based have been copied (and the paraphrase is still too close) and then edited in a manner which reduces clarity. Kablammo (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. I gave editors extra time to discuss the proposed change, but there was no dissent in this section. Moved per sources provided. DrKiernan (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pope Theodoros II of Alexandria → Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria – : All the top sources give Tawadros not Theodoros. eg

etc

It is not even clear that Theodoros is the anglicized version of Tawadros, "Bishop Tawadros, aged 60, whose ecclesiastical name is after Saint Theodore". Relisted. DrKiernan (talk) 08:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC) Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 15:15, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NB this is after a discussion above Talk:Pope Theodoros II of Alexandria#Name, please continue discussion hereto. Czar Brodie (talk) 15:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

not also this where an editor has sudenly changed past pope names to make Theodoros fit. Czar Brodie (talk) 16:58, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Undid that dubious recent move.Lihaas (talk) 12:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tawadros or Theodoros?

I don't really care either way, but is it too much to ask that the article be consistent? --Khajidha (talk) 20:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

it is Tawadros per above. I have tryed to correct the article but it keeps reverting. I do not want to get into edit wars. You are free to correct the article yourself. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 08:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]