Talk:Pons, Count of Tripoli

Pons, Count of Tripoli has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: April 23, 2019. (Reviewed version).

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pons, Count of Tripoli/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: HaEr48 (talk · contribs) 05:31, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Will take a look at this. HaEr48 (talk) 05:31, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

General

I believe the article is generally well-written, with appropriate coverage of the subject's main historical events. Generally complies with MoS guideline. Well-referenced with academic sources. No copyvio, OR or neutrality issues found. Citations are provided properly, I've spot-checked some of them and they do check out. Images are appropriate and tagged.

Specific

I do have specific feedback below, please take a look. Feel free to disagree but please explain the reason if you do so.

Native Christians captured Pons during a campaign: I think the preceding events (e.g. the fact that Pons was defeated by Bazwaj and had to flee) need to be mentioned first, so that the text flows more chronologically

I modified the text ([1]).

"He united his inherited lands (that his father had held in fief of the kings of Jerusalem) with territories in the Principality of Antioch.": Can you rewrite this sentence so that it's clearer what it's trying to say? Does "unite" mean there was some legal/institutional consolidation? Or is it merely saying he expanded the territories he inherited from his father?

I modified the text ([2]).

". Bertrand's legitimacy was dubious, however, because his parents were closely related": This is not obvious to me : why would his parents' relation make his legitimacy doubtful? Weren't marriages of close relatives common among European noble houses?

I added a wikilink. Canon law prohibited marriage between close relatives. Borsoka (talk) 02:10, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can you include some geopolitical background to place the "Reign" part in context? E.g. where was the county of Tripoli? What were the main Crusader states when Pons took the throne? What were the main Muslim powers? What was the position of the Byzantine empire? The background will help understanding the parts that follow.

Thank you for your suggestion. Would you refer to other GAs or FAs which contain such a geopolitical background in articles dedicated to a monarch? I am afraid that the geopolitical position of the county could hardly be summarized. Borsoka (talk) 08:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Borsoka: For example, see the "Background" section in Æthelflæd or Muhammad I of Granada. They're both FAs, and your article is only aimed at GA status, so I guess yours doesn't have to be as in depth as those two. But IMO, even one paragraph of background would really help readers who are not previously familiar with this time and place. HaEr48 (talk) 20:54, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"after ordering his wife, Cecile of France, be engaged to Pons.": Maybe mention Cecile's birth year or age? Because her young age partly explains why she could just be ordered to marry another guy.

Sorry, I do not understand your above remark. Even if Cecile would have been more than 50, Tancred could have ordered her to marry Pons, because he was her husband.

@Borsoka: IMO, the birth year or age would be useful regardless. It's often done when introducing family members in biographical article. My last sentence was an example illustrating how this could help provide context, but maybe I'm wrong so I'm sorry. HaEr48 (talk) 20:54, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did not find information about the date of her birth or about her age in books cited in the article or in other books in my library. Even Natasha R. Hodgson's Women, Crusading and the Holy Land in Historical Narrative fails to mention Cecilia's age, although she writes of Cecilia. Borsoka (talk) 01:58, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"attended the synod": wikilink synod?

Wikilink added ([3]).

Is there a battle or campaign article to be linked about Baldwin's defeats? E.g. the defeat by Mawdud and the defeat by Balak that caused his capture?

The first battle linked ([4]) and the circumstances of Baldwin's capture explained because he was not captured in a battle ([5]).

When was Baldwin released from captivity?

Information added ([6]).

Link the siege of Tyre? (or maybe Venetian Crusade). For readers interested to learn more about the episode.

Wikilink added ([7])

Next year he sought help from the king in attacking Rafaniya: who held Rafaniya or conquered it from his grandfather?

Info added ([8]).

fled first to Montferrand: link "Montferrand"

A stub created and linked ([9]).

was allegedly born in the late 1110s: why "allegedly"? Per MOS:ALLEGED, if the intention is to introduce doubt, please mention the source of the doubt.

The text was modified ([10]).

Please briefly mention the fate of his domains after his passing, and his other legacies if any.

Info added ([11]).

-- HaEr48 (talk) 03:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comprehensive review. I need some time to address your above concerns. Borsoka (talk) 09:55, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@HaEr48:, thank you for your patience. Please find a summary of my edits and also my comments above. Borsoka (talk) 08:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Borsoka: Thank you for your response. I'm happy with most of them, but I still have comments above. HaEr48 (talk) 20:54, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@HaEr48:, again thank you for your patience. I expanded the article with information about the geopolitical situation of the county ([12]). Borsoka (talk) 01:53, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Borsoka: Thanks for your update, it looks really great. One sentence, however, seems odd: Unless Bohemond and Tancred, Raymond accepted the Byzantine Emperor ... Did you mean another word instead of unless? HaEr48 (talk) 02:43, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe? [13]

@Borsoka: Maybe you originally meant unlike rather than unless? HaEr48 (talk) 03:14, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you. I modified. Borsoka (talk) 03:35, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your responses, Borsoka, as well as your good work on the article. I've passed this article as GA. I hope my review has been useful. 06:49, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@HaEr48:, thank you for your review. Your suggestions significantly improved the article's quality. Have a nice week! Borsoka (talk) 09:51, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]