Talk:Pomona Envisioning the Future

Removal of citations and images

I have been trying to track down what is happening, and I have to admit, I'm really confused.

There was an edit here that removed the images that were uploaded by User:LouisBrownstone (who appears to be blocked), and were licensed as being made available for use. There was also a list of sources that were removed.

The edit summary says: "Removed my copyrighted photos which were not authorized to be on the page. Also removed my un-cited references."

First of all, no one owns references as stated on the user's talk page and in the edit summary when I returned them. If there is an issue with use of copyrighted material, that's another and different issue.

The images appear as if they were properly licensed for use, so I am not sure what the issue is - unless the images were not taken by LouisBrownstone as stated in the licensing info / summary of the files: File:Goddessofpomonafull.jpg, File:PomonaEnvisionsTheFutureMural1.jpg, and File:PomonaEnvisionsTheFutureMural2.jpg. I don't see anything on those pages questioning the licensing (i.e., no requests for deletion and nothing posted to the talk page about these images.)

If it is that there is a sockpuppet issue, and the person no longer wants their information on Wikipedia, information is entered into the public domain. So once it is entered, it is not "owned" by anyone. If someone knows the history here and can explain, that would be helpful.—CaroleHenson (talk) 00:40, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I thought I replied. I was forced by a friend to make the Pomona Envisions the Future page. I was also forced to take the photos and add them. Louis was a sockpuppet which is why it was deleted. I told Wiki to remove my copyrighted photos as Louis is blocked. I then came and removed my photos. This page was up for deletion. My friend used sockpuppets to vote to keep it. Delete this page while you're at it. I have recently found out that what I wrote is false. My friend who gave me the info lied to me. I removed the citations as I wrote some and the friend wrote others. One is a press release. Mary Cummins (talk) 01:11, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Mary Cummins, I am sorry that you felt that I was forced by a friend to make the Pomona Envisions the Future page. I was also forced to take the photos and add them. Once content is added to Wikipedia, though, it is in the public domain. It's not your right or place to remove content once it is added because you want to withdraw the additions.

Regarding the photographs, they have a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License, in which "permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document."I see no evidence at all that these are being considered for deletion. What happened after: I told Wiki to remove my copyrighted photos as Louis is blocked. I then came and removed my photos.? It would seem that once they are released for use, they are available to be used. Not, available to be used until I change my mind.

Pages don't get deleted because someone wants them to be deleted. What is your reason for why this page should be deleted, i.e., what Wikipedia guidelines?

I don't know what to make of I have recently found out that what I wrote is false. My friend who gave me the info lied to me. and I removed the citations as I wrote some and the friend wrote others. You're saying that each of the sources printed the articles, and now all of them are wrong? This is confusing. Since there are no inline citations, I don't know what the press release covered, but I will tag it with better source. And, if you tell me what is false, I will look into it with reliable secondary sources and see if I can square that away.—CaroleHenson (talk) 01:45, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Which is the press release?--—CaroleHenson (talk) 01:59, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pomona Envisions the Future was the AfD. Glrx (talk) 05:03, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Notes

The "notes" you added are your personal opinion. You are reading things into the work. The article is supposed to only be about items which have been posted in well known media sources. It's not for your personal opinion.

I'm going to go in and correct the article and remove my sources which I wrote as they are false. The mural wasn't finished when they started it because the main person didn't get it done in time. He preferred to sit on the scaffolding and talk to people all day instead of painting. It had nothing to do with money or politics. The main artists listed as part of the project didn't paint one stroke of the mural. Their names were used to get more attention to this mural. The "rededication" ceremony was a publicity stunt to give attention to one "artist" because everyone felt sorry for him. He would tell people his tales of woe which turned out to be fake. We arranged for the city to give him a plaque to cheer him up. I should know as I handled the rededication event, press release... Mary Cummins (talk) 02:56, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I have not added anything that is personal opinion. Since you say you wrote the article, you should recognize the verbiage. I am just moving out of the way the content that is too detailed for the moment, as I said in the edit summary. It's likely most if not of all of this will be deleted if I cannot find sources for it.

It is not your right to remove these sources... and you are still not telling me what is false. I am using other sources for the moment and so avoiding your sources, so they are likely to get deleted. But please hold tight while I try to clean this up... especially since you are not saying what is false.--—CaroleHenson (talk) 03:05, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I did say what was false. It's above and in the talk page. The well known artists named as contributors to the mural never painted or designed anything. They were only part of the ETF project which was many different art projects. I painted part of that mural and I'm not an artist. Kids and homeless people painted it. Some of the mural was painted with house paint which faded. It's painted over stucco. Bldg wasn't even prepped. We all wrote articles about it to help an artist who turned out to be a fraud. A Wiki page was made about the artist. Wiki realized the guy was a fraud and took down that page. Wiki tried to delete this page originally as it's not a mural of note. No one famous painted this mural. Mary Cummins (talk) 03:16, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I did say what was false. It's above and in the talk page. - This is the talk page and I don't see anywhere that you, Mary Cummins, said what was false.

The well known artists named as contributors to the mural never painted or designed anything. They were only part of the ETF project which was many different art projects. - Okay, well, I'll keep working on it bearing that in mind.

Wiki realized the guy was a fraud and took down that page. - I just read why the page was taken down, and there's a bit more to it than that. But, it's likely it would have been taken down as not meeting WP:GNG.

Wiki tried to delete this page originally as it's not a mural of note. - Wiki didn't try to take down the page, a user nominated it, and the result was to keep. The discussion about that is in a link at the very top of this page.—CaroleHenson (talk) 03:29, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I am not sure if you're watching the edit summary, but I have found sources that disagree with what you are saying. If I find sources, though, that differ I will reflect that. If you know of reliable sources that support your position, that would be helpful to know.—CaroleHenson (talk) 03:54, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Regarding The well known artists named as contributors to the mural never painted or designed anything. They were only part of the ETF project which was many different art projects.: If you are referring to Judy Chicago and Donald Woodman, the article has been updated to reflect their role in the panel discussions/lectures and training the facilitators. So far, I haven't seen that Judy Baca and Gilbert Luján were involved in the Pomona mural, if they were also artists that you are referring to, but I see that they were part of the initial panel discussions/lectures. I am not seeing that Kevin Stewart-Magee was involved in the initial planning for the mural, so far. And, it looks like, from another source that I am about to add, that Susan Krieg was a painting facilitator for the initial project, and I'm not seeing anything, yet anyway, that she was involved in the mural. Does that square things away for you?--—CaroleHenson (talk) 08:56, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Flurry of edits

There is now an editing restriction on the page because user Carole G Henson is making a manic number of edits. Also please note the top post on this page. That was posted by a sockpuppet friend of one of the artists who made this page. It is false. The mural is not on the seal of Pomona or city letterhead. One of the artists involved Kevin Stewart-Magee is not a "famed" muralist or artist. He worked as one of many painters who projected photos on walls, traced them with chalk then filled them in with paint by number in a studio that did grocery store decorating. His name is not on any of those murals. The artist lied to people about the mural and himself. The mural is not an homage to Diego Rivera. The artist made up that story to get press. School children don't take trips to see this mural. Another story. I didn't realize at the time that I made this page that the artist lied about all of those things. Mary Cummins (talk) 04:03, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

1) I have asked for your help, 2) everything that I cannot find sources for will be removed. Unfortunately, as I mentioned below, I so far am not finding sources supporting what you say, but as I said, if I find them or you can provide some they will be included. Unless you have helpful comments, I will just keep on working.—CaroleHenson (talk) 04:18, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

You've been blocked from editing the page because of your many, many edits. You're now obsessed with this page. I have been giving you info which you've ignored. Here's some more. The mural is not on the seal or letterhead of the city of Pomona as is stated above. Here is their seal. No mural there. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seal_of_Pomona,_California.png I was in charge of the "rededication." It was fake. It was never originally dedicated and can never be dedicated. It's a privately owned mural painted on a privately owned building. The image is now privately owned by the owner of the building. No one can take photos and give free licenses for the photos of that mural. I wrote and sent out a fake press release. I didn't know I was being fed false information by the painter. I do now.Mary Cummins (talk) 04:39, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Mary, I have not ignored it. Please see my postings... no reason to duplicate what I've already said, except for this: Can you find me sources that support your statements? I feel bad that everything I am finding, from various kinds of sources, don't support what you're saying. I am only making edits based upon what sources tell me, which is our role as contributors.

If you see User:CaroleHenson/Menu - Working on, you'll see that it's not at all unusual. In fact, is my standard MO to clean-up articles and save them. I only saw this article because it popped up on my watchlist after your edit. I am not quite sure what you are so concerned about?

Regarding the files, it is appearing that they might need to be pulled from Wikipedia. And, you were pinged into that discussion.

It sounds as if you are declaring a close connection to this article, even moreso than before, so I will post that notice on this page.--—CaroleHenson (talk) 05:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

As I've done more work on the article, I have a better idea of things. So, here is some direct feedback:

• The mural is not on the seal of Pomona or city letterhead. - I am only seeing that in a comment on the talk page (now archived off, so it shouldn't be an issue), not in the article.
• One of the artists involved Kevin Stewart-Magee is not a "famed" muralist or artist. He worked as one of many painters who projected photos on walls, traced them with chalk then filled them in with paint by number in a studio that did grocery store decorating. His name is not on any of those murals. The artist lied to people about the mural and himself. - Well, that may be, one of the Poly Cal Tech sources has a picture of him painting the mural, and there is at least one article about his role in the mural... however, some of the information about him was relegated to the notes section as a discrepancy because it seems in contrast with other information.
• The mural is not an homage to Diego Rivera. The artist made up that story to get press. - I haven't found anything about the specifics about the mural so far. And, the article doesn't say the mural is a homage to Rivera, it says that the part about the laborers reflects his style. If I cannot find sources for the info, that and other uncited specifics will be eliminated.
• School children don't take trips to see this mural. Another story. - That's not in the article, either.—CaroleHenson (talk) 09:32, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Sources

When looking at the sources, it appears that these might be the most viable ones:

• Cal Poly Pomona Library, Special Collection "Envisioning the Future," Collection number UA2004/2/1-9, Bldg 15, room 4434. Historical documentation of project and artists. Done
• Brown, Betty, February 29, 2004, Art Scene California, "Judy Chicago's 'Envisioning the future.'" Done
• February 1, 2004, Poly Centric, Cal Poly Pomona Campus News, "Envisioning the future challenges local art community." Done
• November 13, 2003, "Envisioning the Future" Pitzer College to Host Opening of Judy Chicago Project Done
• February 28, 2003, Absolute Art, "Call for artists, "Envisioning the future."
• Muckenfuss, Mark, September 8, 2004, Press Enterprise, "Mural Celebration."

And, based upon comments about falsifying articles, that these might be the ones to be clear to avoid:

• Rodriguez, Monica, Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, October 4, 2008, "Art now for the future."
• Rivera, October 1, 2008, Indybay Media, "Celebration for 'Pomona Envisions the Future' mural in Pomona, California"
• Rodriguez, Monica, July 25, 2008, Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, "Mural gets some care."
• September 15, 2004, Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, "Her fate on the LA County seal is sealed, but the Goddess Pomona now looms over the Thomas Street Plaza downtown."
• September 14, 2004, Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, "Teacher becomes larger than life as Goddess Pomona."

Is that right?--—CaroleHenson (talk) 06:13, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Based upon the comments on this page from Mary Cummins, I am using primary sources and not using local papers for this article. So, there is a heavier reliance on primary sources as a result. I have marked  Done for the sources that have been used in the article, because, IMO, they are most likely to know the actual details of the project. Suggestions, thoughts, etc. would be helpful.—CaroleHenson (talk) 08:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Conflict of interest / Close connection

At least one major contributor to this article appears to have a close personal or professional connection to the topic, and thus to have a conflict of interest. Conflict-of-interest editors are strongly discouraged from editing the article directly, but are always welcome to propose changes on the talk page (i.e., here). You can attract the attention of other editors by putting {{request edit}} (exactly so, with the curly parentheses) at the beginning of your request, or by clicking the link on the lowest yellow notice above. Requests that are not supported by independent reliable sources are unlikely to be accepted.

Please also note that our Terms of Use state that "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." An editor who contributes as part of his or her paid employment is required to disclose that fact.—CaroleHenson (talk) 11:25, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I was forced to make the page. I didn't realize the information I was given to make the page was false. I have a conflict of interest so you should delete the page. All of those articles were written after I made this page. They are the result of this fraudulent page existing with all that false information. The page was about the mural not the project. You User:CaroleHenson changed the page and are now making it about the project.

Cheryl Bookout was paid $3,500 by Kevin Stewart-Magee to help with the fake "rededication" for the sole purpose to give him press. Bookout also wrote "articles" about the mural to help Magee. That is another conflict of interest.

Another correction. Lief is not an artist in the paint medium. He's a house painter and a musician. He's a nice guy but he just sprayed the clear over the final mural. Magee added his name as an "artist" painter as a favor.

You User:CaroleHenson made 63 edits on this page in 24 hours. I've never seen a more compulsive, obsessed Wiki user ever. You are what tripped the "too many edits" robot. What is your relationship to this mural and the artists? I see it was on your watch list as you replied within about a minute to my edit.Mary Cummins (talk) 21:05, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

This discussion is about whether there is a conflict of interest or not. I am hearing you confirm that there is a conflict of interest. This article is markedly different that when I started, per your comment about the number of edits and the focus on the project in the past 24 hours. As I said to you earlier, you only have to look at User:CaroleHenson/Menu - Working on and, now also, scroll through my contributions to see it's my MO to clean-up articles.

I don't remember why it was on my watchlist, I have written and worked on a number of visual arts articles, per Menu - articles, it probably had something to do with that. I have no conflict of interest, and as you will see in history of the article, I never edited the article before yesterday. I will open a discussion in the #Comments about the article section below about these other issues.--—CaroleHenson (talk) 21:27, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Update with link to where I posted the comments about the content.—CaroleHenson (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Uncited content

I cannot find sources for the following:

• It depicts the prehistoric landscape of the indigenous Tongva people. The settlement of Europeans is depicted in citrus groves, a locomotive, and a Diego Rivera influenced trompe-l'œil relief of laborers in a "x" configuration, representing the indomitable strength of labor. They support a bowl containing varieties of fruit that were traditionally harvested by predominately Latino migrant workers. The decline of the citrus industry is represented by dead citrus trees that stop abruptly with the landscape at the twenty-four foot figure of the the city's namesake, which has a pan-Latin appearance. Her arms are outstretched, and doves fly away from her towards a hopeful future. The landscape then reflect the congested urban-suburban sprawl of industrial pollution and over-crowded housing. The future is depicted with mountains and blue sky and the misty outskirts of a glowing city. A school of the future shows seated students in a "learning circle" and an environment that has been restored to near primordial conditions. In the distance is a vision which is millions of years away from the actual event, the galaxy Andromeda is seen in the morning sky as it approaches our own Milky Way.
• Most of the people seen in the mural are local residents from the Pomona area. Many of the people sitting around the ring are friends and family of the artists. The mural was left unfinished in 2004 due to financial and political issues. It was finally cleaned, finished and clear coated in late 2008 before the rededication ceremony.
• The mural was restored and finally finished in 2008 with funds from the City of Pomona Board of Parking Place Commissioners. A bronze plaque from the Downtown Pomona Owners Association was added on October 4, 2008 at the re-dedication ceremony.

If there are sources, and I've missed them, that would be good to know.--—CaroleHenson (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Article renamed / moved

The article was renamed to Pomona Envisioning for the Future, the name of the September 2003 project, because it is more notable than the mural. There is more information that could be gleaned to expand that area-—from information in existing sources and that can be found in books—while the mural is pretty well-tapped out in terms of useable sources.

There is a redirect, though, from Pomona Envisions the Future, so that anyone who types that name in will find this page.--—CaroleHenson (talk) 13:57, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Comments about the article

Regarding your comments about my input to this page. I have addressed the COI issues - and here is my feedback about the article content.

The page was about the mural not the project. You User:CaroleHenson changed the page and are now making it about the project. - Yes, that is exactly what I did at the end of a long string of edits. I didn't start out with that intention, but that is where the information led. The project is more notable than the mural, and more information can be added to expand that area - while more information cannot be found to expand the mural information, particularly since I am avoiding the articles that you have said are false.

Cheryl Bookout was paid $3,500 by Kevin Stewart-Magee to help with the fake "rededication" for the sole purpose to give him press. Bookout also wrote "articles" about the mural to help Magee. That is another conflict of interest. - Ok, but I don't see anyone else trying to make edits or disputing the edits. (update) You'll see that the article has nothing about activities in 2008, because when I excluded the sources you said were false, there was no source for that info.

Another correction. Lief is not an artist in the paint medium. He's a house painter and a musician. He's a nice guy but he just sprayed the clear over the final mural. Magee added his name as an "artist" painter as a favor. - Ok, if you have a source that says that, I can make that update. You just need to {{request edit}} on this page with that source.

Or, if you have an early reference about the mural artists that excludes him, that works, too. That would get us one away, I think, to the "8" mural artists mentioned by the management company.--—CaroleHenson (talk) 22:19, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

You User:CaroleHenson made 63 edits on this page in 24 hours. I've never seen a more compulsive, obsessed Wiki user ever. You are what tripped the "too many edits" robot. - Well, I can certainly see why you might say that. I get on a roll researching and cleaning up articles - and that is my standard MO regardless of the situation, see recent examples James Cantine, Justine Hardy, Eliza Routt... and more.

You are good at throwing accusations, so I am not surprised by this comment.—CaroleHenson (talk) 21:39, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

"Good at throwing accusations?" It's not an accusation but a fact. I counted the number of edits you made within 24 hours. Your "MO" of "getting on a roll" is the exact definition of clinical obsessive, compulsive behavior. Happy Holidays.Mary Cummins (talk) 02:19, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

There is a lot of backstory about me, but that's not a necessary topic. I truly hope that you do have a happy holiday now, and can put this article behind you, because it sounds like you have had a rough experience over time.--—CaroleHenson (talk) 03:11, 25 December 2016 (UTC)