Talk:Pom-pom

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Talk:Pom-pom/old was copied or moved into Pom-pom with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

September 2006

Welcome to the Pom-pon talk page!

For ease of reading, newest comment sections/topics ought to be placed at the page's top. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VigilancePrime (talk • contribs) 01:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

n.b. Don't do this. See Help:Using talk pages. --BDD (talk) 18:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image

I reverted the page to remove the second image of cheerleaders with poms. I personally had difficulty identifying the poms themselves initially. Adding to that, it made the page a little unbearable (two large images in sequence and the large blank space beside it), and since the image is used (and much more effectively) on two other pages, I felt it was unnecessary to add it here also. Maybe I'm being bold, but I don't think it's that much so. Thanks for the understanding, and please don't be discouraged to contribute to the article in other ways, especially in text and references! VigilancePrime 01:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE NOT MOVED -- as there was no consensus for the move per discussion below. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pom-pon → Pompon — he spelling, according to Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language is "pompon" and is a borrowing of a French word of the same spelling, which in turn derives from a Latin root for "pomp." I've fixed the disambiguation page and its uncited assertion that the word is "often misspelled as 'ponpon.'" The article was originally entitled "Pompon" so there is a redirect now from what the article ought to be called to what it is currently being called. I don't know how to unredirect something. P0M 04:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC) -- This discussion section created by SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 06:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add # '''Support''' or # '''Oppose''' on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

Support. Accuracy and sense of history of the term is more important than how many people now spell the name of the ornamental fluff ball by analogy to the spelling of the military weapon. P0M 03:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey - in opposition to the move

Strongly Oppose. Per WP:UE. This page should be moved forthwith to Pom-pom or Pompom. See my comments below. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 07:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
STRONGLY OPPOSE ANY MOVE. VigilancePrime 15:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this move. I suggest moving it to Pompom. TJ Spyke 02:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Comment. Following dictionaries give precedence to "pom-pom" or "pompom":

Random House - precedence given to pompom
Merriam-Webster - precedence given to pom-pom
MSN Encarta - pom-pom ("pompom" not mentioned at all)
Wordsmyth - precedence given to pompom
Compact Oxford - precedence given to pompom (although it does not mention the cheerleader's accoutrement
Concise Oxford 11th ed (hardcopy)
Gage Canadian (hardcopy – rather old, so you can ignore it if you want)
Other dictionaries:
Chambers mentions both, mentions pompom first, no hyphen
Cambridge American mentions both, mentions pompom first, no hyphen
Allwords (the AND dictionary?) mentions both, pompom first, no hyphen
Note: While American Heritage Dictionary gives pompon precedence, it specifically states: "3. pompom A ball of fluffy material, such as feathers or strips of colored paper, that is waved by cheerleaders and sports fans."[1]

For the things that cheerleaders wave about, pom-pom or pompom takes top spot; all the dicts give it at best prime spot or at worst equal standing with "pompon" (Gage doesn't even mention the word pompon). For the thing on a shako or the botanical item, though, pompon is the choice. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 07:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All of a sudden, this article is getting attention and wants a move? No. If you read the actual article, the correctness of the "Pom-Pon" spelling is given many times over. Often times, dictionaries are slow to catch up on society, and this is a case where there is a lot of ambiguity to begin with. Cheerleaders the world around have for a long time and will for a long time continue using the term "Pom-pon." This is the dominant spelling in virtually ALL trade publications. Again, read the actual article for the references.

Considering that less than 20% of this article was actually written by other Wikipedians, I feel that I have a significant interest in this, and unless one wants to completely rewrite or massively expand on this article, it should stay where it is, where it has been written in, and where the only major contributor to date has put it.

STRONGLY OPPOSE this move, and feel that the question itself is ridiculous from anyone who has not put in time and effort to this article already anyway. VigilancePrime 15:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You should read WP:OWN. And yes, you have "given" the "correct" spelling many times over, but with selective reference to one dictionary, and make a general claim "Within cheerleading, the term pom-pon is used almost exclusively" (proof?). You have made assertions, but have not backed them up. As for the other dictionaries which you deprecate: WP:V states "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require stronger sources." I believe most reputable dictionaries have a rep for fact-checking. As for your claim that dictionaries are slow to catch up with society, "pompon" is the older term, "pompom" the newer; if, as you say, dictionaries drag their feet, then that only serves to reinforce the idea that the latter term has well-and-truly established its primacy in the language. And I did indeed check your references:

aacca.org, usasf.net, cheercoachmagazine.com and nfhs.org don't use the term on their websites.
At American Cheerleader, there were 9 hits for pompon or pom-pon" and 8 for pompom or pom-pom. I removed "American pompon" because it is a company name occurring multiple times, but still counted it as a hit.
nfhs.org gives one hit for pom-pom, one hit for ::*pom pon, and nothing for the unhyphenated variety.
varsity.com, the only site which mentions the term in any numbers, I get:
- pompon – 57 hits
- site:varsity.com pom-pon – 82 hits
- site:varsity.com pom-pom – 237 hits
- I ignored "pompom" since the vast majority seem to be posts from a user named "PomPom".

So if you are going to make an assertion that 1. within cheerleading the the term pom-pon is used "almost exclusively", and 2. that dictionaries are wrong, you will need to come up with some better citations than you have. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 18:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. You're frighteningly thorough; I'll certainly give you that. If you read through the magazines (let alone speak to those in the industry: cheer coaches, cheerleaders, etc.), you'll find the "ending in -n" term almost exclusively. There is wide variance to the use of the hyphen, yes. Ultimately, that's why all four variations - last I checked - end up in the same place via redirects.

I don't think this is even much or an issue anyway, since no matter on which page the actual article text appears, the other three variants will still point there. I am curious to know if you think the adds I made today in the actual article regarding the variations are a help or hinderance... I think it needs some clean-up, but it's better with the information than without.

Lastly, may I ask, out of curiosity, why you're suddenly interested in this article at all? It just hasn't had but a small handful of people doing any edits at all and suddenly it's having these discussions about moving and stuff... just seeking to streamline Wiki (I see you have a ton of edits across the board - I'm impressed)?

Anyway, I stand by my original assertion that this should stay right here, and that in the actual publications and in the Cheer community (especially among the "hardcore" ... yes, hardcore cheerleaders are a unique sort!) the -n term is correct and most often with a hyphen. That said, I think it's somewhat irrelevant to be discussing it anyway since, again, all four end up in the same place. (PERHAPS it would be better to expand in the article the "controversy" regarding the term and spellings...?

VigilancePrime 21:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have three dictionaries on hand, the New World Dictionary of the American Language, World Publishing Company, Webster's New World Dictionary, Simon and Schuster, and Collins American Gem Dictionary, Collins Publishing Co. All three of these give "Pompon." Growing up, I learned to say "pompom" and name chrysanthemums and cheerleaders' ornamental "mop head" type ornaments by the same word. So I was a little surprised to learn the history of this word. It came into English by direct loan from the French word "pompon," and continued to be spelled in that way. Then the great wars came along and we got ack-ack and pom-pom, and people apparently started to getting the similar sounding words confused. Whatever else it is, "pompon" is not a common misspelling. The principle involved in changing the "official" spelling to "pom-pom" or "pom-pon" would seem to be that when enough people do something the "wrong" way it becomes the "right" way. Some dictionaries hold to that standard. "If more flies like it, it must be very fly." (By the way, some dictionaries seem to hyphenate words because that is the way they indicate syllabification. Check it out. Are all words of two or more syllables being written as, e.g., dog-fight, air-plane, etc.?) Do as you like, but don't call something that is accepted by standard dictionaries a "common misspelling." P0M 03:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about other people, but I found the article while in search of some other information and was a bit surprised by "pom-pon," which my ideas absorbed from my grandmother told me was "wrong." So I checked, and, guess what -- I was wrong. But the hyphen went with the echoic weapon name. My impulse is to correct things that I found that appear to be wrong, not to claim ownership of articles or to become a POV-warrior for my own spellings. P0M 04:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As it seems like the discussion here is getting somewhere, rather than closing it I'm relisting it for another five days at WP:RM. Kyle Barbour 00:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have reproduced my dictionary queries here, with annotations:

Random House - precedence given to pompoM
Merriam-Webster - precedence given to pom-poM
MSN Encarta - pom-poM ("pompom" not mentioned at all)
Wordsmyth - precedence given to pompoM
Compact Oxford - precedence given to pompoM (although it does not mention the cheerleader's accoutrement
Concise Oxford 11th ed (hardcopy) - gives precedence to pompoM
Gage Canadian (hardcopy – rather old, so you can ignore it if you want) - gives precedence to pompoM
Chambers mentions both, mentions pompoM first, no hyphen
Cambridge American mentions both, mentions pompoM first, no hyphen
Allwords (the AND dictionary?) mentions both, pompoM first, no hyphen
Note: While American Heritage Dictionary gives pompoN precedence, it specifically states: "3. pompoM A ball of fluffy material, such as feathers or strips of colored paper, that is waved by cheerleaders and sports fans."[2]

At any rate, the most common usage for the cheerleader's accoutrements is the pom(-)poM spelling, with or without the hyphen; of those, pompom is the more common, only Merriam-Webster completely ignoring the hyphenless usage. However, none of the above references supports the hyphenated pom-poN usage. This article will definitely have to move from here; the question is, to where.

As for where I came across this article: it popped up in WP:RM, so when I read the proposal, I started consulting dictionaries. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 02:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

November 2008

PLEASE ADD "pom-pom" FROM WW2!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.29.138.34 (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's there - see the disambig line... Ian Cairns (talk) 17:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

March 2009

I was thinking, shouldn't this be Pompom? If feel like this spelling is more common, and even if you do a quick google search for pompon and pompom, you get 1.3 million for pompon, and 6 million for pompom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.108.41 (talk • contribs) 04:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question about the history

Is it true that "pompoms" come from Palm palms? In the olden days people would waves palm branches during parades, such as in Palm Sunday.Tarheelz123 (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 2011

The page appears to be a bit haphazard between using the various spellings, one spelling should be picked and used throughout for continuity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.14.11.86 (talk • contribs) 01:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 12:58, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pom-pon → Pom-pom – Per WP:COMMONNAME. As noted in the RM and other sections above, the spelling with two Ms is much more common. See, for example, this Ngram, which makes clear that we're using a fairly obscure version. While I'm largely agnostic as to whether the term should be one word or two, or whether it should have a hyphen, I'm proposing what seems to be the most common form. A raw Google search ignores the punctuation and shows the proposed form ("pom pom" -wikipedia) very much outnumbering the current one ("pom pon" -wikipedia), 22.5 million to 685,000. --BDD (talk) 18:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Never knew it as anything else. LCS check (talk) 19:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. This is the spelling used in the Oxford English Dictionary. The opposition above seemed to be based on cheerleading, but in most of the world cheerleading is not the primary usage of this term, which most often refers to the decoration on top of a hat. What cheerleading "trade publications" call it is therefore fairly irrelevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. It is certainly the better known spelling. Mabalu (talk) 16:06, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The lead

Help! Isn't that thing on a hat commonly called pompom? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:38, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]