Talk:Police van

Below is talk copied from merged article 'Paddywagon'

It was my belief that paddy wagon was used in a derogative fashion with regards to the prisoners inside the wagon.

I question the accuracy of this article... is it truly an ethnic slur against Irish people to refer to a prisoner transport vehicle as a paddywagon? --Dante Alighieri 11:02 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

No country mentioned, therefore presumably refers to usage in the only one that matters. jimfbleak 11:13 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The term is accurate, and I believe it's current (though rare) in Canada and parts of the US. I believe it's as likely to derive from the fact that most cops were Irish, rather than most prisoners. DJ Clayworth 21:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I always thought that it refered to the fact that the inside walls would (logically) be padded. cuiusquemodi 04:26, 11 Aug. 2004 (UTC)

This article was listed on Votes for Deletion. Kept as there was no consensus to delete. Here is the archived debate:

Paddywagon

• Orphaned slang term, little chance of improvement. -- Graham  :) 16:33, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Move to wiktionary? I think the use of this slang term has outgrown its racist meaning; and is now generically used to indicate a police car (as seen in public enemy lyrics). - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:59, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I rewrote with a slightly fuller explanation--still a stub, but could maybe be expanded. Meelar 21:13, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Maybe this could be redirected to Police car or something of the kind? Ambivalenthysteria 12:22, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Borderline, but I think it could grow. Anthony DiPierro 04:49, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. If there were an article on police vehicles in general it ought to redirect there, but (to the best of my knowledge) there isn't. -Sean 06:29, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• Keep - useful
• Keep. It is the normal English term for the vehicle type and their history and descriptions, once the wiki process has done its job, definitely merits a full article. Jamesday 23:56, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

2 different explanations

Thomas Sowell, political writer, cannot be relied upon for a true citation in this article The article should stick to the true source of the term, used by the Mafia to refer to police cars.86.42.141.219 22:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Are there any other sources that claim the same thing as Sowell? Also, does anyone have access to the book and thus can quote exactly what was said. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 00:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The exact quote, on page 69 of the 1983 edition of the book (ISBN 0-688-04832-3), is "Police vans became known as paddy wagons because the prisoners in them were so often Irish." I am curious as to my alleged motivation for fabricating this citation from the whole cloth. Am I in the pay of mad anti-Irish bigots? Please, do enlighten me as to why I would bother lying about this.

My personal opinion -- which, being opinion, is not suitable for inclusion in the article proper -- is that BOTH etymologies are accurate, and reflect the transition of Irish Americans from the lowest rungs of society to one of the most successful immigrant groups. Denying turn of the century racism against the Irish is utter folly; they were one of the most despised and downtrodden ethnic groups of the time. (This was partially due to anti-Catholic racism in general, and partially due to perceptions of the Irish as drunken and violent in particular.)

(BTW, claiming that a "political writer" is automatically an invalid source is pretty specious, and would remove vast swathes of citations from Wikipedia. The book in question is a statistic and fact dense tome discussing many different ethnic groups and how they responded to racism in America and elsewhere. I came on the paddywagon article while researching the term 'Black Mariah', saw the etymology given, remembered a different one, tracked down the source, and posted it as an alternate explanation. I *thought* that was the guiding principle behind Wikipedia -- the individual tidbits of knowledge of thousands of individuals coming together to form a reference superior to that created by a few. I was unaware that facts which some people don't like needed to be dropped down the memory hole. Must have missed than in the FAQ. It is certainly possible Sowell is wrong and quoting an urban legend -- if so, if THAT can be verified, then the legend and it's debunking ought to be in the article. Simply denying that there may be a racist or pejorative origin for the term is not productive, unless one simply wishes to deny racism ever existed in America. Good luck with that.)

--Lizard sf 04:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying that you are making racist edits nor that you are lying. The point here is to judge the value of the source. I am not familiar with the author so it becomes hard for me to say if it's valid or not. To use an extreme example, you would not use the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a base to make valid comments about Jewish people. Now, from your description of the book and the small amount of research that I was able to do, it would appear a reliable source. So I would suggest to User:86.42.141.219 that putting it in is not saying that we belive that the only people, or, even the majority of people picked up in the early days of the paddywagon were drunk and/or Irish. It is just saying that people then believed that then. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 04:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you're utterly unfamiliar with Sowell's work, you could check the Wikipedia entry on him. :) And you're correct. The issue is not whether or not the Irish were all drunken reprobates; the issue is that they were commonly *believed* to be, and that his belief led to the etymology of 'paddywagon' at least arguably deriving from the people in the back, not the front. Folk etymologies are tricky things to verify. --Lizard sf 17:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Not being Irish myself, but living here in Ireland, one might still say I am biased putting POV tag. You know, I can get citations that Hitler was nice and sweet and fed the starving the Jews and that the holocaust is a myth, actually citations can be gotten for almost anything. In James Cudgewell's book, "The Black Dawn", 1934, page 119 he writes about the mobsters referring to police cars (not police vans) as Paddywagons, because the American police forces were made up almost exclusively of Irish and Irish immigrants. He mentions the word about a dozen times altogether in the same context. I have read some of Sowell's work in the past, out of curiosity, and was never too comfortable with his analysis of events, although I know that he has his fans. He is very racially aware and forever writing about Blacks and Whites etc which strikes me as condition of inverted-racism, whereas true intellectualism would result in racial-blindness. 86.42.141.219 02:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, my understanding of "paddywagon" was that it originated as a somewhat racially tinged term for a police vehicle used to transport groups of arrested Irishmen - a wagon for "paddys". Based on this and the above discussion, I suggest that the alternative theory of the meaning of the phrase has sufficiently entered the folk etymology to be included in the article.--Qball6 18:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the theory that the paddy wagon was called so because of the high number of irish prisoners be included, along with the theory that it was named for the high number of irish police, seeing as how until reading this article i had never heard of the latter.--Display Name 05:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

AHD speculates Paddy here is a reference to (Irish-American) Policemen http://www.bartleby.com/61/91/P0009100.html , just because you haven't heard of this theory doesn't mean that it isn't well known.

My point was that there appears to be support for both theories as to the term's origin/meaning. I am not arguing for the exclusion of the police origin. My brief online survey found no consensus as to the etymology [1],[2],[3], [4],[5], [6],[7],[8]. Note that most sources use adjectives like "perhaps" or "probably" when referring to the etymology.

There clearly is no definitive answer as to the origin/early usage. I submit that if we are going to have an article about a slang term, both of these widely held theories ought to be included without constituting POV.--Qball6 15:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I have added citation and removed the Tag. The origin is from the padding used on the inside the horse-drawn wagon. Various different people put their own interpretation, but WP is not about individual points of view. Red blaze 16:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that WP is not about anyone's opinion. I have now (wasted a lot of time) done a fair amount of research and there is clearly no consensus or firm authority about the origin of the term. Slang terms are notoriously difficult to source in any event, and I'm not sure how you could ever really get a definitive answer - unless you somehow resurrect the first person who ever used the phrase. There are three prevailing and sourced theories that should be included if we are going to have this article.--Qball6 21:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I first heard it from an Italian guy while growing up in South Boston. Considered EXTREMELY racist in some parts of the worl...just like calling a Mexican a Wetback. Irishgt 06:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to throw in other alternative suggestions and muck everything up, but two other obvious roots exist: that "paddy" is short for either padlock (used to lock the back of the wagon) or, more likely... patrol (wagon). Clearly the other possibilities remain strong. Tinydr (talk) 17:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

i'm with you -- it is clearly from PATROL wagon. don't some countries call regular police cars "patty cars" to this day? 173.9.95.217 (talk) 19:46, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

We need pictures of some Paddywagons

I can get some of Irish police vans —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.176.160 (talk • contribs)

Great idea - a picture would definitely make the article look better. Are you planning to take the picture yourself? It makes for fewer image restriction issues if you do. -Kubigula (ave) 00:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I found and added a public domain image of a 1909 paddywagon. However, I still think the article would benefit from a picture of a new model. It would be a good contrast to the 1909 version.--Kubigula (talk) 04:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't where to correctly add this note but ... When I was growing up in Sydney, NSW in the 1960s, "paddywagon" always referred to the police ute (as pictured on this page) but the "Black Maria" was a much larger vehicle (like a small pantech) which transported prisoners in bulk from jail to the courts and back to jail or remand. It was a very dark blue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.204.185 (talk) 06:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I have always heard the vehicle pronounced Mar - eye -a, rather than Mar- ee -a, as the name usually is. Do we have any reference for that?

IceDragon64 (talk) 18:14, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I always saw it spelled as 'Mariah'. I've seen that spelling (Tom Waits, Big Black Mariah), and heard that pronunciation (ibid, and The Clash Guns of Brixton). 'Maria' and "Mar-ee-a" just seem wrong to me, but the spelling at least, is pervasive. Willondon (talk) 00:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I checked the Wikidictionary entry for "Black Maria" and the pronunciation it gives matches "Mar-eye-a". I always remember seeing it spelled 'Mariah'. When I came across 'Black Maria', I was surprised to find that in Wikipedia and Wikidictionary, not only is this spelling predominant, but there's barely a trace of 'Mariah'. Willondon (talk) 01:30, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Mar-eye-ah in the book reading of Gulag Archipelago both available on Youtube. The word is said at least a half dozen times I think in the first chapter.

i hate to state the obvious, but i think people have been influened by Mariah Carey into thinking this pronunciation needs an "-h".

same thing has happened to the old song "They Call the Wind Maria". b/c it is pronounced this way, many references -- and some cover versions -- have now added an h.

ironically, Ms. Carey was named after this song. dunno if her parents tweaked the spelling intentionally, or were just careless. was the "h" spelling out there with EITHER pronunciation before her? 66.30.47.138 (talk) 02:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Semantics

The need for a secure police van was realised when prisoners who were resisting arrest needed to be transported'

Semantics: it is not the prisoner who has the need (even though this misappropriation of the word is common usage in certain US-ian contexts in which a wish is referred to as a need in an attempt to confer upon it extra urgency / credibility), but rather the arresters.

It is examples such as this that highlight Wikipedia's paucity of professional, literate editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.102.202 (talk) 21:00, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

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