Talk:Poland in the Early Middle Ages/GA2

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hi, I'm reviewing this article. Wronkiew (talk) 15:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Prose

• Starting the article with "According to the currently predominant opinion" significantly weakens its argument. Ideally, you should start with proven facts, then explain the positions of mainstream scholars. Also, the first sentence is too long to be readily understood.
• "Installing in Poland the Christian Church in its western Latin Rite, brought Mieszko's country into the realm of the ancient Mediterranean culture, but was done in response to the immediate practical concerns." This sentence has multiple grammar problems.

  "Of the issues requiring urgent attention the preeminent was the increasing pressure of the eastbound expansion (between the Elbe and the Oder rivers) of the German state, and its plans to control the parallel expansion of the Church through the archdiocese in Magdeburg, the establishment of which was finalized in 968." Whose attention was required? Wronkiew (talk) 17:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

• Parenthetical statements are not always set off by either parentheses or commas. Too many cases to list. For example: "Fighting the Veleti from the beginning of Mieszko's rule led to a natural at this point alliance of his state with Germany."
• Many of the parenthetical statements throughout the article would be better placed in the notes section. This would improve readability by reducing the length and complexity of some of your sentences.
• Some sentences are far too long to be understandable by any but the most careful readers:
  • The final process of the differentiation of the cultures recognized as early Slavic, the Kolochin culture (over the Kiev culture's territory), the Penkovka culture and the Prague-Korchak culture took place during the end of 4th and in 5th century CE, probably with small participation of some elements from the Chernyakhov culture and the Dacian Carpathian Kurgans culture, as not all of the previous inhabitants had left the area and some groups were assimilated (the Slavs took over much of those cultures' territories).
  • While the exact nature of their relations with the Slavs there is not known (the nomad envoys bribed Slavic chiefs from the lands they did not control, including Pomerania, to secure their participation in Avar raids), the Avars had some presence or contacts in Poland also in 7th and 8th centuries, where they left artifacts in the Kraków-Nowa Huta region and elsewhere, including a bronze belt decoration found in the Krakus Mound.
  • The events of 974-978, when Mieszko, like his brother-in-law Boleslaus II of Bohemia, supported Henry II in his rebellion against Otto II, created a threat of the Emperor's retribution (ineffective, as it turned out) and probably motivated Mieszko to move the government to the safer, because of its more eastern location, Gniezno (the growing importance of Gniezno was reflected in the addition around 980 of the new southern part to the original two segments of the gord).
  • In parallel with the gord building activity (920-950) the Piasts undertook military expansion, crossing the Warta and moving towards the end of this period south and west within the Oder River basin (the entire network of tribal gords between the Obra and Barycz rivers was eliminated, among other places), often resettling the conquered populations to central Greater Poland, partially depopulating previously well-developed regions.
• Both "Veneti" and "Venethi" are used in this article. Do these terms refer to the same people? If so, the spelling should be standardized in this article.

• I presume from the sentence explaining them that they are not the same. Perhaps Orczar can create an article on Venethi and ensure that both that article and Veneti discuss the possible relation and confusion? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• "Besides the above mentioned (Poland in Antiquity) Baltic Veneti, ancient and medieval authors speak of East European, or Slavic Venethi." There is no previous mention of the Baltic Veneti in this article.

• Further, this is bad style. PiA is not "above", and references to other articles should be kept hidden. A link to Baltic Veneti should be enough.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

MoS

• The lead does not adequately summarize the article. For example, Mieszko is not mentioned in the lead, even though his name is in one of the section titles.
• Several unfamiliar terms are introduced in the lead without adequate explanation. The most unfamiliar terms are Jordanes, Getica, and Antes. If a particular tribe or settlement is not critical to understanding this time in the history of Poland, remove it from the lead.
• "Truso in Prussia was discovered at Janów Pomorski, near (as it was long suspected) Elbląg." Suspected by whom?
• "The process of hiding or depositing them, besides protecting them from danger, is believed to represent a cult ritual." Believed by whom?

Original research

• "Their migration was probably caused by the pursuit of fertile soils and persistent attacks on eastern and central Europe by waves of people and armies from the east, such as the Huns, Avars and Magyars." The speculation needs to be removed or the sentence needs its own reference.
• "The fear of desecration of their tribal cult center by the advancing Czechs could have mobilized the community." This is speculation, and the sentence needs its own reference if it appears in one of the sources.
• "Also a Polabian Slavs uprising was suppressed around 940 by Germany under Otto I and the eastbound moving Saxons must had added to the sense of danger at that time (unless the Piast state was already allied with Otto, helping restrain the Polabians)." Speculation.
• "This must have worked out, since Widukind then described Mieszko as 'a friend of the Emperor'." Speculation.

• All of the above (and quite a few other) are examples of a common error: all sentences, not only paragraphs, should have inline citations. Remember that articles on Wiki can be edited by others (and will); if a para simply has an end reference, nobody but the author can be sure that the info before the last sentence comes from the same source. If somebody adds a referenced sentence in the middle, the attribution of the text before it is confusing. And so on. I'd personally not pass any article as a GA until every and each sentence has an inline citation.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Luckily, the Good Article criteria does not require inline citations for all sentences. The only sentences which require inline citations are direct quotes, statistics, and counterintuitive statements. Of course, more citations are always better. Wronkiew (talk) 05:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Focus

• "This geographical advantage continued in the years to come, so in the Dagome iudex document written 991/992 before Mieszko's death, Mieszko's state is called Civitas Gnesnensis, or Gniezno State (badly misspelled by the cleric, who produced the existing summary)." This could be stated much more simply without a discussion of spelling.
• "Dendrological studies, which form an important bases of wooden settlement dating, show the construction of powerful Piast gords in western Silesia region along the Oder River (Głogów, Wrocław and Opole) in 985 at the latest." An explanation of dating methodology is not helpful here. It is possible that it could be useful in an article about those particular gords.
• There are many cases of digressions in this article. It should focus on explaining the movements of people and avoid excessive detail about archaeology, historians, and motives.

Citations

• Citing Polish Wikipedia is not helpful. If you are pulling a quote from another source through Polish Wikipedia, you need a complete citation for the original source.
• Sentences with quotes need their own references, preferably with page numbers:
  • The Venethi says Jordanes, who "now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins", were at that time made obedient to the Gothic king Hermanaric's command.
  • "They have swamps and forests for their cities" (hi paludes silvasque pro civitatibus habent), he adds sarcastically.
  • The "bravest of these peoples", the Antes, settled the lands between the Dniester and the Dnieper rivers.
  • Procopius in De Bello Gothico located the "countless Antes tribes" even further east, beyond the Dnieper.
  • Together with the Sclaveni they spoke the same language, of an "unheard of barbarity".
  • Writing around 965 or 966 Ibrahim ibn Yaqub described the country of Mieszko, "the king of the North",[g] as the most wide-ranging of the Slavic lands.
  • The Life of St. Adalbert, written at the end of 10th century by John Canaparius, lists the fate of many Christian slaves, sold in Prague "for the wretched gold", as the main curse of the time (dragging of shackled slaves is shown as one of the scenes on the bronze 12th century Gniezno Doors).
  • "The Veleti are fighting Mieszko", reported Ibrahim ibn Yaqub, "and their military might is great".
  • According to Widukind, "Wichmann went to the barbarians (probably the Veleti or the Wolinians) and leading them twice defeated Mieszko, killed his brother and acquired a great deal of spoils".
  • This must have worked out, since Widukind then described Mieszko as "a friend of the Emperor".

Comments

Overall, a very comprehensive, interesting, and well illustrated article. I'm putting it on hold until the above issues are resolved. Due to the complexity of this article and the number of issues, I will need to do a second review after corrections are made. Also, I will ask for input from WikiProject Poland on its neutrality, since there appear to be scholarly disagreements about this period of Polish history. Wronkiew (talk) 06:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Orczar has indicated that the above issues have been resolved. As I stated above, I will now do a second review of the article. This article is very long and it will take me at least a week to finish the review. Wronkiew (talk) 06:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Second review

I went through the article again, in more detail, and found some remaining issues. After these are resolved I think it will be ready for promotion. Wronkiew (talk) 06:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

• Prose
  • "By the end of Mieszko's life his state included, either wholly or for the most part, all of the ethically Polish lands." It is very difficult to determine what his state included because this sentence mixes up two different concepts. One is the extent of the state. The other is the knowledge of how far the state extended. Rewrite to make this more clear.
  • Pick calendar system and stick with it. Either use AD/BC or CE/BCE.
  • Explain "cultural horizon" or choose a more common term.
  • "Opposite time direction" is not a commonly understood phrase.
  • I could not understand the phrase "cultural model of the Kiev paleo-ethnological phenomenon". State it more simply or define "cultural model", "paleo-ethnological" and "paleo-ethnological phenomenon" in the article.
  • Use a hyphen to break up "semisubterranean".
  • "The living and economic activity structures were either distributed rather randomly, or arranged in rows or around a central empty lot." "Rather randomly" is not specific enough. You would be better off omitting the phrase altogether. Avoid the word "rather" in general.
  • "As the Germanic people before, the Slavs were leaving no man's land regions between developed areas, and especially along tribal 'borders', for separation from strangers and to avoid conflicts." Why is "borders" in quotes? If they weren't really borders, use a more descriptive term or explain the difference.
  • "Specialized craftsmen (of rather mediocre qualifications) existed only in the fields of iron extraction from ore and processing, and pottery; the few more luxurious items were being imported." "Luxurious" is misused here. I think you mean "luxury items".
  • "A larger group was needed in the past for forest clearing and burning undertakings, when farming communities had to shift from location to location; in the mature—settled phase of agriculture, a family was sufficient to take care of their arable land." This is redundant and not specific. "The past" encompasses a period from yesterday to billions of years ago. Also, references should be placed after punctuation.
  • "Despite the high civilizational advancement, except for the Wolin city-state, no statehood structures developed in Western Pomerania." This sentence is unclear. Is it saying that the Wolin city-state was not civilized, or that it was the only statehood structure? Also, I'm not entirely sure what a "statehood structure" is, and I don't think that "civilizational" is a word.

The word "civilizational" can be found on p. 271 of Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, Gramercy Books 1989, ISBN 0-517-068781-X Orczar (talk) 23:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

• • "Because of the volatile topography of the Vistula estuary region the location went through substantial changes and was difficult to recognize; consequently attempts to physically locate Truso were unsuccessful until 1982." Needs a comma after "consequently". This sentence might be more clear if it was explained who was attempting to locate Truso. Also, you can just say "to locate".
  • "It is believed that the Vistulans of western Lesser Poland, mentioned in several contemporary written sources, already a large tribal union in the first half of 9th century, were evolving in the second half of that century toward a supertribal state, until their efforts were terminated by the more powerful neighbors from the south." The term "supertribal", if it is a technical term, needs to be defined at the first use. If it is not a technical term, hyphenate it to make it clear that it is a compound adjective.
  • "The most important Vistulans related written reference comes from the The Life of Saint Methodius, also known as The Pannonian Legend, written by Methodius' disciples most likely right after his death (885)." Extra "the".
  • "Otherwise, it was predicted, he would be forced to do so in a foreign land, and, the story goes, that's what eventually happened." Avoid using contractions. Also, this sentence is not very clear, and you need to name the story.
  • "The countless enemy soldiers thrust their way into Poland, and the King himself, having previously subjugated the Pannonians, entered through Moravia like through the back door, victoriously unfolded the wings of his forces, conquered the Kraków area lands and Silesia, leveling in process the ancient city walls." This sentence is too complicated, and you're missing a "the" and an "and".
  • "The Vistulans were probably also subjected to Magyar raids, as an additional layer of embankments was in many cases added to the gord fortifications in the early part of 10th century." You can replace this with "often".
  • "Mieszko at that time was in process of fixing the uneasy so far, mainly because of the Czech cooperation with the Veleti, relationship with the Bohemian state of Boleslaus I." The placement of commas in this sentence makes it unreadable.
  • "This act in fact followed in 966 and initialized the Christianization of Greater Poland, a region so far, unlike Lesser Poland and Silesia, not exposed to Christian influence." This sentence unintentionally states that Greater Poland is to this day not exposed to Christian influence.
  • "During these years a tremendous civilizational advancement took place in central Greater Poland, as the unearthed products of all kinds are better made and more luxurious." The term "luxurious" indicates an excess of comfort, which is probably not what you meant here. Maybe replace with "elaborate".
  • "It could be that the Poznań town was established by the Nitran refugees, and more generally, the immigrants from Great Moravia contributed to the sudden awakening of the otherwise remote and isolated Piast lands." The phrase "it could be" indicates a level of uncertainty in the historical/archaeological record that makes the statement unencyclopedic.
  • "Traditionally Gniezno was seen in that role, but the gord in Gniezno didn't even exist until about 940." Avoid contractions.
  • "The victory achieved in September of 967, when Wichmann, leading this time according to Widukind the forces of the Wolinians was killed and Mieszko had his revenge (additional mounted units were provided by Mieszko's father-in-law Boleslaus), was recognized by the Emperor as the turning point in the struggle to contain the Polabian Slavs, which distracted him from pursuing his Italian policies." The lack of commas setting of parenthetical statements makes the first part of this sentence unreadable. Also, this long sentence has too many statements. It needs to be split up into two or more sentences.
  • "This new status allowed Mieszko to successfully pursue the efforts leading to obtaining by his country an independent bishopric even before the Czechs, who had a vastly longer tradition of Christianity behind them." Again, too many statements, not enough commas.
  • "John of Ephesus actually goes as far as saying (the eightieths decade of 6th century), that the Slavs had learned to conduct war better than the Byzantine army." State the date range more clearly. I'm not sure the term "eightieths" can be applied to decades.
  • "The authors provide various details on the character, lifestyle and living conditions, social structure and economic activities of the early Slavic people, some of which are confirmed by the archeological discoveries as far as in Poland, as the Slavic communities were quite similar all over their range." Which authors are you referring to?
  • "Such finds however do not extend to the peripheral (for Great Moravia) areas of southern Poland." It is unclear in this sentence what Great Moravia has to do with peripheral areas of southern Poland.
  • "The gords were the centers of social and political life, tribal leaders and elders had their headquarters in their protected environment, some of the tribal general assemblies took place inside them." Run-on sentence.
  • "Located at the mouth of the Oder River, from the beginning was involved with long distance Baltic Sea trade." This sentence is missing a subject.
  • "Vistulan's main town Kraków, with its Wawel gord, was located along a major "international" trade route." Vistulan is an adjective, thus it cannot be made into a possessive. Maybe replace with "The Vistulans'", or "Kraków, the main town of the Vistulans".
  • "The main Vistulans-related archeological find (in addition to the 8th century Krakus, Wanda and other large burial mounds and the remnants of several gords) is the late 9th century valuable treasure of iron ax shaped grzywnas, well-known as currency units in Great Moravia." The hyphen indicates a compound adjective, and "Vistulans" is a plural noun. You could replace it with "the main archaeological find", or "main Vistulan-related archaeological".
  • "What made the ultimate difference however could be the exceptional individualities of the Piast family members, who were able to take advantage of the arising opportunities." I doubt that you mean that their individuality made them exceptional. Perhaps "exceptional individuals"?
  • "Controlling in particular the rich seaports of Western Pomerania situated on long distance trade routes, such as Wolin, Szczecin and Kołobrzeg, would be very profitable." Problem with tense. Maybe replace with "was" or "could have been".
  • "In 965 Mieszko married Boleslaus' daughter Doubravka. Mieszko's chosen Christian princess Dobrawa, as she is called in Polish..." It needs to be made clear in the first sentence that Dobrawa and Dourbravka are names for the same person.

    Both Dubrawka and Dobrawa are still used in this article, and no indication is given that they are names for the same person. Wronkiew (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

  • "This act in fact followed in 966 and initialized the Christianization of Greater Poland, a region so far, unlike Lesser Poland and Silesia, not exposed to Christian influence." I think you mean "initiated" or "began".
  • "In 968 an independent missionary bishopric, reporting directly to the Pope was established, with Jordan installed as the first bishop." Missing a comma.
  • "The "Lechici" term popular later, synonymous with "Poles" (derived also from the Lendians tribal name), like the legend of Lech, may also had been inspired by Mieszko's grandfather." This sentence is too complicated to be readily understood.
  • "Also a Polabian Slavs uprising was suppressed around 940 by Germany under Otto I and the eastbound moving Saxons must had added to the sense of danger at that time..." Should be "must have added".
  • "Older than Gniezno Poznań, where the first cathedral church, a monumental structure, was erected, was likely the original Mieszko's court site in the earlier years of his reign." This sentence needs a comma between Gniezno and Poznań. Also it could use some simplification.

    I'm still confused about this sentence. Is it saying that Poznań was likely the original court site? Wronkiew (talk) 23:33, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

• MoS
  • Lead section
    • Define "protohistory" when it is used or replace it with a more commonly understood term

      This still needs some work. How is protohistory different from prehistory? The definition "in the past" is already understood by readers based on deconstructing the word, and should be removed. Wronkiew (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

    • Same with "proto-state".
    • I am unfamiliar with many of the region names used in the lead section, and this makes it very difficult to follow. I recommend cutting some detail, instead explain the migrations in more general terms. Most people who view this article will want a few questions answered up front, such as who lived in the area of present day Poland, what other cultures they had contact with, and how they lived. Readers will need to be familiarized with terms such as southern Masovia and Wiślica, but this should not be done in the lead. There are some things you should keep in mind while working on the lead. One, if a term has extended latin characters in it, you'll need to briefly explain the context for English readers, at least on first use. Include all obviously Polish terms in that category, even if they don't have extended characters. Two, the lead should be understandable by non-historians, even without the benefit of wikilinks.
      • Here I'd disagree; I find such links helpful (a map would be great if we can find/create one which would have those names).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
        • I think wikilinks actually make it possible to write a brief exposition without a jungle of explanations, which would make the text more difficult to follow. The geographic locations and regions can easily be looked up through the links if the reader is interested. The extended Latin characters are already commonly used in names of articles, which is a positive development, because it makes naming things more accurate. The computer editing techniques make such characters easy to use now. Admittedly it makes the text a bit more difficult to follow, but the improvements are worth it. Following your suggestions on rewriting the lead section would considerably reduce its informational content. Orczar (talk) 04:03, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

          I disagree about the wikilinks and the the reduction in content. I am not suggesting that any links be removed. However, the lead section should be understandable to most readers without clicking on those links. Also, I do not suggest removing any extended latin characters. I was using them as a marker for terms that readers will be unfamiliar with, thus they require more explanation. I am working off the Good Article criteria, one of which is compliance with WP:LEAD. Quotes follow:

          • The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article.
          • It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible.
          • Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked.
          • The subject should be placed in a context with which many readers could be expected to be familiar.
          • Avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, especially if they are not central to the article as a whole.

          Also, because the lead section only summarizes the contents of the article rather than adding detail to it, cutting detail in the lead does not reduce the informational content of the article. If the detail is not essential to understanding the subject, it should be removed, and replaced by more accessible summaries. Some sentences from the current lead section:

          • "The early Slavic settlement sites in Poland belong to the Prague-Korchak archeological culture; it is similar to the earlier Kiev culture." Readers will not be familiar with the names of either culture, so naming them without explaining them is unhelpful here.

This is why we have ilinks to them; I'd highly recommend stubbing the red linked one (Prague-Korchak culture). Ilinks are meant to explain terms that would be less clear; I've linked Archaeological culture which should help: the reader does not need to know anything about those cultures in particular, as long as he can read about and understand the concept of an "Archaeological culture".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • • "The West Slavs, including the future Polish tribes, would have come primarily from the more western early Slavic branch called the Sclaveni by the Byzantine historian Jordanes in his history work known as the Getica, the eastern branch being the Antes." Knowing who Jordanes was is not essential to understanding early Polish history. Also, readers will not be familiar with the Antes, so naming them here is also unhelpful. They are already adequately explained later.

I agree that this entire sentence is strange. Read the first part again: "The West Slavs, including the future Polish tribes, would have come primarily from the more western early Slavic branch"... now read this: "The West Slavs come primarily from the more western early Slavic branch." Pleonasm? What about: "The West Slavs' origins can be traced to the Sclaveni tribe." Sclaveni needs to be stubbed, and of course, I am not sure whether the tribe is the right word here (Orczar?).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • • "The Slavs had migrated into Poland beginning in the second half of the 5th century CE, some half century after these territories were vacated by Germanic tribes, their previous inhabitants." This sentence, in contrast, is very helpful, and a good example of the kind of explanation that is appropriate for the lead section. Most readers will be familiar with all the proper names used in this sentence.
          • "Among the largest of the tribal states was that of the Vistulans (Wiślanie) in southern Poland, with Kraków and Wiślica as the main centers." Vistulans, Kraków, and Wiślica are unfamiliar terms. You need to explain what Vistulans are, or reformat the sentence so it is clear that they are a tribe. You also need to explain what kind of settlements Kraków and Wiślica are.

Disagree here. The sentence makes it clear that the Vistulans (ilinked) were a tribal state (tribe...) and the following names are their main centers (perhaps the word settlement would be better?). Of course, if you have an idea how to make the sentence even more clear, do propose it here, I am not saying it is perfect - just that it seems reasonably clear to me as it is.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • • "The Polans settled in the flatlands around Giecz, Poznań and Gniezno that eventually became the foundation and early center of Poland, lending their name to the country." It probably isn't helpful to name these cities here, as most readers will not know where in Poland they are.

I agree that we should add a note after the cities along the lines of "...in central Poland" or such.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • The rest of the lead is in pretty good shape. One other thing, you need to limit it to four paragraphs. Wronkiew (talk) 05:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Words to avoid
    • The phrase "so-called" carries a negative connotation, indicating that the following term is not universally accepted. I can't think of a reason why an evaluation of the acceptance of terms would be appropriate in this article.

      Still several cases of this in the article. Wronkiew (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

    • The phrase "quite apparent" editorializes unnecessarily.
    • Avoid using the phrase "it is believed that", unless you are attempting to explain what the subject of the article believes. Otherwise, stick to facts.
    • "The chronicler talks of a past Polish war with the army of Alexander the Great (!)." Avoid indicating your opinion of surprising facts in the article.
    • Avoid using the term "obviously". It assumes too much on the part of the reader, and it can push a viewpoint that is not supported by the source material.
    • "Lestek was also reflected in the sagas of the Normans, who are believed by some to have played a role in Poland's origins (an accumulation of 930-1000 period treasures is attributed to them)." Avoid making statements about others' beliefs without stating who you are referring to. Also, as noted above, avoid talking about "beliefs".
    • "Others see early capitals in the old gords of Grzybowo, Kalisz (located away from Gniezno Land) or Poznań." Who are the "others"?

      Need to reference a source for "some authorities". Wronkiew (talk) 23:33, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

• Original research
  • "The Milograd culture could possibly have been a seat of the early hypothetical Indo-European, Proto-Balto-Slavic society; such common ancestry is presumed for linguistic reasons." This speculative sentence needs a reference.

    Still not sure if this references a reliable source. Is the entire paragraph covered by Kaczanowski & Kozłowski? Wronkiew (talk) 07:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

    • Completely agree, see my comment above at #Original research.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

  • "This may have been necessary to facilitate the coalescing of tribes into great tribes, some of which under favorable conditions would later become tribal states." Speculative.
  • "Some of them were developed and inhabited, others had a very large empty area and may have served primarily as refuges in times of trouble." Speculation about the use of gourds. Needs a reference.
  • "Early expansion of the Gniezno Land tribe began very likely under Mieszko's grandfather Lestek, the probable real founder of the Piast state." Needs a reference.
• Citations
  • "The glory of the Great Moravian empire became fully apparent in light of archeological discoveries, of which lavishly equipped burials are especially spectacular." This sentence needs a reference.
• Focus
  • Move the explanation about the discovery of Truso out of this article.
  • Cut some of the detail about the silver treasures.

I went in and moved the alternate theory stuff to the Origins section and combined the remains of the first two paragraphs, to comply with WP:LEAD. The remaining issues are minor, so this article is promoted. Wronkiew (talk) 07:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.