Talk:Pigs (Three Different Ones)

Reference

The reference is also in another episode of South Park when Cartman is being babby-sitted by Shelly. He also says to her "Ha ha Charade you are"

I think the interpretation of the lyrics below is subjective and should be reworded to reflect that.

"The second verse, however, is an all out assault on then opposition leader Margaret Thatcher (who the band indirectly say they wish to shoot - 'Good fun with a hand gun'..."

That the band are stating in this line that they want to shoot someone is debatable.

I wouldn't say it's debatable; I'd say it's absurd.

It reminds me of people who think the third verse edits out a "fuck you" when Waters huffs and puffs into the microphone before singing "YOU-- Got to stem the evil tide" -- they think the "YOU" is the end of a self-censored insult, when it's so obviously the beginning of the next line. If Waters wanted to say "fuck you" on a record, he damned well would have, and the record company wouldn't dare question Roger Waters at that point in Floyd history.

It just makes me shake my head and wonder, some of the ideas people come up with.

What is "debatable" is if the verse is about Maggie in the first place! It could easily not be -- I mean, "bus stop rat bag" doesn't especially bring thoughts of a Prime Minister to mind.

--Ben Culture (talk) 07:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Hm. I just wanted to add, I'm really digging on how Wikipedia articles are no longer cluttered with reflections of references in cartoons like South Park, Family Guy, or The Simpsons. Yeah, Cartman said "Ha ha! Cha-rahd you ah!", and I'm sure it WAS a quirky, meaningless little reference to this song, but it wasn't important to that episode OR this song! It was "clutter" IN the show -- we don't need to double the clutter quotient by reflecting it.

Great job, everybody! Great job, editorial consensus!

--Ben Culture (talk) 06:09, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

first line

Im not gonna edit the article, because i'm not sure, but I think that the first line is about callaghan, which was the prime minister during the making of the song. He was a bit corpulent (big man) and had trouble with the mining business (the references of mine in the song). He was defeated in the elections by tatcher (who was waiting to tak power: the bus stop). I think this is the correct vision of the first verse, which would make more sense than what the meaning is now, the meaning now are the dogs and not pigs.

I think it was wise of you not to add this to the article. I think your theory makes sense, but without a source, it's original research.

--Ben Culture (talk) 07:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Rhythm guitar

Is there any sources regarding Roger Waters playing rhythm guitar on this track? According to "The Pink Encyclopedia" Gilmour played all guitar parts. Floyd(Norway) 17:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly Roger Waters played rythm guitar on "Sheep", That is very well sourced, even in interviews, but according to the pink floyd encyclopedia, the 3. edition, he does not play rythm guitar on this track.

Huh. But we know he played guitar onstage for it, right? I believe he played electric guitar on all three of the big Animals songs, onstage. Maybe the encyclopedia is just wrong.

I have a transcription of this song from "Guitar World" or one of those magazines. There are many guitar tracks, at least six, on this song. With that many, it's easy to imagine Roger played one or two of them!

--Ben Culture (talk) 07:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Margaret

The information regarding "Pigs (Three different ones)" has been the subject of a lot of discussion, but I think comments regarding the second verse and Margaret Thatcher are certainly wrong. She did not come to power until 1979, and the album, released in 1977 was based on much earlier Floyd work. In 1977 Margaret Thatcher was a relative unknown. I have also heard that the third verse refers to Arthur Scargill, leader of the National Union of Mineworkers at the time ("Down in the pig mines") - But I'm not entirely sure, knowing Roger Waters' left wing persuasion. Having been a Floyd fan for many years, this is the one question I have never heard a convincing argument for. Anyone know any more? Rob Neal 82.10.180.198 18:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

When Roger Waters performed it at on his 1987 Radio Kaos tour i think he changed the lyrics slightly in order to encorporate prime minister Margaret Thatcher - Ummmagumma23 10:18 26 June 2007 (UTC).

Well Mike DeGagne of AMG is as good as a resource as anyone. He mentions this here. Doc Strange 17:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me for butting in, but -- He's a fucking idiot! He's NOT as good a source as anyone! See my comment on the Animals Talk page, titled "AllMusic sucks; let's stop using it." It's all about that review. --Ben Culture (talk) 07:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

There has been much speculation over the last 30+ years as to the identities. There is disagreement in Wikipedia.

I don't think that pig no. 1 is James Callaghan - whilst he was the current Prime Minister (1976-1979), he hadn't really done anything too controversial - the "Winter of Discontent" was still to come. There is a reference to a mine; so presumably we're dealing with a miner's leader - it's not likely to be Arthur Scargill, who didn't become NUM president until 1982, but more likely to be his predecessor, Joe Gormley (NUM president 1971-1982).

Pig no. 2: probably Margaret Thatcher. Despite above comments, she was well-known prior to the 1979 General Election, having been Edward Heath's Secretary of State for Education and Science from 1970 to February 1974 (during which time her critics used the slogan "Maggie Thatcher Milk Snatcher"), and Leader of the Opposition (replacing Heath) from February 1975 to 1979.

Pig no. 3 is definitely Mary Whitehouse, no question. She's even named, and the characteristics fit. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know firsthand about the UK, but in Canada no-one in their right mind would call the leader of the opposition a "relative unknown". That would be like saying John McCain is a "relative unknown" in the US right now, when he had the second-best shot at becoming President in the last election and continues to be an important figure in the #2 party. I'm sure the situation in the UK is analogous.

I also agree that there is no possibility #3 is anyone but Whitehouse, as the person above said it even calls her out by name. It's also absolutely clear the third verse is about censorship, which fits Whitehouse to a T, and has no bearing at all on Scargill. 99.41.24.115 (talk) 19:13, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Bass solo

Should there maybe be some mention in the article of the bass solos in this song? Cheers!! 67.8.205.97 (talk) 01:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry!! Forgot I wasn't signed in!! Cheers!! Ninety^wazup? ( r t ) ^{sign here!} 01:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Any comment? Ninety^wazup? ( r t ) ^{sign here!} 23:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I added a mention.RobertGustafson (talk) 15:46, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

"Apparently" censored?!? Not apparent at all.

Apparently during this part of the song, some of the original words were, in fact, censored by the band or its management before the final mix was recorded for release. Consequently we do not hear the actual words that the group used to describe Mary Whitehouse in detail - just a few "grunting sounds" and the words previously mentioned.

It isn't at all apparent that any censorship was done. It's perfectly plausible that Roger Waters wanted a sequence of harsh breathing rather than actual words. Consider the non-word "lyrics" that would appear in "Not Now John" (for example, "Don't know what it is, but it fits on here like [mechanical hissing]"). Consider that Waters was doing "vocal effects" long before he dared to dream of being Pink Floyd's lead singer (That abrasive scraping sound in the intro of "Pow. R. Toc. H." comes from Roger's vocal cords!) Oh, and how could I forget, "Okay / Just a little pin-prick / There'll be no more [scream]", from "Comfortably Numb"?
Furthermore, who would have dared to censor the Floyd at this time of record-setting profitability?
The loud "YOU..." that comes after the heavy breathing is the beginning of the lyric "You got to stem the evil tide", not the conclusion of some censored insult.

You are absolutely right. And the way you put it, I have to wonder, if you are actually a past version of myself, before I registered. I feel very much like I'm looking at my own writing. --Ben Culture (talk) 08:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I mean, if they left the word "fuck" uncensored earlier in the song, why would they censor this part? As well, if the band decided that they wanted those words left out before the release of the album, wouldn't they have simply re-recorded the vocal track to either include different words or simply not have anything sung in that part of the song?

I think that the paragraph should be removed, unless someone can find some sort of reliable citation for it. Cheers!!! Ninety^wazup? ( r t ) ^{sign here!} 04:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

People, keep in mind what the verse is about. This bit is making fun of the censorship Mary Whitehouse would have imposed on it if she could. And yes, it is a (mock-)censored "fuck", not the first word of the next line. 99.41.24.115 (talk) 19:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's interesting that you feel so certain, but considering how the lyric sheet AND the sheet music puts it (see below), you are simply wrong. Do you have anything to back this up? Karl Dallas, perhaps? He made a LOT of big, bold blunders in his book, Bricks In The Wall. And he wasn't even certain about this idea. --Ben Culture (talk) 08:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I have a vinyl copy (yes I'm that old... to find out exactly how old, see my user page) and the inner sleeve has the lyrics:

And do you feel abused?
.....! ......! ......! ......!
You gotta stem the evil tide,
And keep it all on the inside.

--Redrose64 (talk) 20:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! The sheet music also confirms this. It does not attempt to format the heavy breathing (".....!"), just goes from "And do you feel a-bused" to "You got-ta stem the e-vil tide". --Ben Culture (talk) 08:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

And it's not censorship at all - censorship is external authorities (mostly government) preventing material from being published. If the band does it themselves, it is not censorship. Str1977 ^(talk) 11:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Original Research: Talk Box and Cassette Versions

The line about the talk box is obviously correct to any Pink Floyd fan, but needs a citation. I think this and the lines about the cassette version should be deleted since they constitute original research. The line about the cassette may in fact, be a confusion with how "Pigs on the Wing" was mixed from two songs into one for the eight-track version. Again this is common knowlege amongst Floyd fans, but needs citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trashbird1240 (talk • contribs) 15:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

No, this is not the sort of thing that needs a citation, not the thing about the cassette. I'm not confused -- I had that stupid cassette, and it absolutely was this song, "Pigs (Three Different Ones)", and not "Pigs on the Wing", that was split into two on the factory cassette. I remember how much I hated that!

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the eight-track mix. (I've never owned an 8-track tape in my life.)

It's not original research; it's simply a matter of track listing. Do you require a citation to prove the CD's track list? No, of course you don't. The cassette's track listing included "Pigs (Three Different Ones)(Part 1) on Side A and "Pigs (Three Different Ones)(Part 2)" on Side B. That's no different from listing the CD's tracks, it's simply another format.

(And it's not as if nobody owns cassettes anymore; plenty of people still have their tape collection.)

As for the talk box, that has already been cited, using Fitch's PF Encyclopedia as a source.

I'm sorry if I seem angry. I'm sure you have nothing but good intentions. I just don't think you totally understand what is, and isn't, original research.

--Ben Culture (talk) 08:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Some notes about the instruments (fretless bass)

The uncharacteristally (for Pink Floyd) complex bass line deserves mentioning. It seems that Gilmour's bass playing (also heard on "Young Lust" and "Hey You" from The Wall) is typically more elaborate than Waters'. Also, the grand piano plays for the duration of each refrain, not just the glissando at their ends (listen if you disagree).RobertGustafson (talk) 15:47, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Can we also mention that it's a fretless bass? At least, the soloing parts are. Maybe the main part of the song, when the bass merely plays back-up, maybe that's a fretted bass, but the solos are definitely fretless (listen to the downward slides it makes when the electric guitar rhythm part first strikes). It's a testament to Gilmour's tasteful playing that the fretless doesn't have that overwhelming roundness to it, unlike most players who can't play fretless calmly. What slides he does are subtle.

Anyway, is there a source for this? Because it totally IS a fretless!

--Ben Culture (talk) 08:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)