Talk:Pickaninny/Archive 1

Archive 1

30 April 2004

The term 'pickney' of the same etymology is used in the Caribbean as a term for children. It is not used in a derogatory fashion - my wife happily uses it, her family being from Barbados. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.102.116.57 (talk) 08:25, 30 April 2004 (UTC)

I'm sure that's true, but she needs to know that, at least in the Southern United States, it's been considered to be a deragotory term for the last four decades or more. Rlquall 03:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The self-referential assertion is backed up by the Jamaican standard (note the Patwa variant) Pickney Girl, recorded by both Desmond Decker and Symarip.

Nuttyskin 05:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Lingua franca

Are we sure that Lingua franca took part in the transmision? Pequeninho is standard Portuguese, and Portuguese pidgins were relexified with English. There are other words that may have passed from Lingua franca to Portuguese pidgins, but I don't know of the reverse case. --Error 00:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

"Pequeninho" is incorrect. Portuguese "pequeno" means "small" or "little"; its (quite usual) diminutive is ""pequenino" (from which "pickaninny" derives); the diminutive of this diminutive (and one of the very few such cases in regular Portuguese) is ""pequenininho". This word and its diminitives is masculne; feminine forms are identical, but ending in "a", instead of "o". 194.65.103.1 15:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The word is also thought by some to be derived from, I believe, Gola "pikannin" which means "child." It is used to mean "child" in South Africa aa elsewhere and is not offensive. Danwaggoner (talk) 07:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

This article doesn't explain what a Pickaninny is. I would be bold and do it, but I myself don't know--that's why I came here. The first sentence should read, "A pickaninny is a..." rather than giving etymology. --Locarno 16:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

UK usage (Enoch Powell)

The term was also controversially used ("wide-eyed grinning picaninnies") by the British Conservative politician Enoch Powell in his "Rivers of Blood" speech on 20 April 1968.

Was the term "piccaninny" commonly used in the UK back then? Was the word considered controversial at the time, or only by today's standards? 217.34.39.123 16:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Like nigger, the word has gradually changed from being value neutral to being offensive and racist over the last century in British usage. Powell probably didn't intend the word to be offensive, but many people felt it was even in 1968. A decade later the word was certainly considered offensive in educated white society, and Boris Johnson's use of the term in 2008 was probably meant to be ironic, though plenty of people didn't see the joke. --80.176.142.11 (talk) 17:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

When I was a child in the UK in the 1950's, "piccaninny" was a term of endearment to a child of any race. I (white, English male child) was certainly called it by my grandmother, and it was common in similar contexts. (OK, this is probably "original research"!) I started hearing 'piccaninnies' used to mean 'foreign - especially Italian - children' in the 1960's, but I think Enoch Powell's speech was the first occasion I ever saw anyone claim it was an offensive term. OldTownAdge (talk) 19:06, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

1831 reference to pickaninny

I noticed this word in the Project Gutenberg edition of "The History of Mary Prince, a West Indian Slave, related by herself". This tract uses the term in the following partial paragraph: She then told me that my mother was living with her father's sister at a house close by, and I went there to see her. It was a sorrowful meeting; and we lamented with a great and sore crying our unfortunate situation. "Here comes one of my poor picaninnies!" she said, the moment I came in, "one of the poor slave-brood who are to be sold to-morrow."

This tract was published in 1831 in Edinburgh, Scotland, and predates "Uncle Tom's Cabin" by about 20 years.

Unclesmrgol 22:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

IPA

None of the words being discussed in this article reference the IPA for their pronunciation; they should. 619morbs 12:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

picanninies in Australia

While examining the spelling of "pickaninnie" which Mary Prince used, I found the following references from sources in Australia

a) 20 November 1838: http://www.law.mq.edu.au/scnsw/Cases1838-39/html/r_v_kilmeister__no_1___1838.htm

This reference discusses an attack in New South Wales upon some natives. Note: also predates Uncle Tom's Cabin.

b) 1950s-1960s: http://www.schools.nt.edu.au/batchas/tmen/1stkcmp.htm A description of cattle herding in the Northern Territory -- the term is used to describe young male aborigines capable of horsemanship.

c) 11 March 2007: http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/scribblygum/newposts/301/topic301350.shtm

The term is used here to describe (in Papua New Guinea) children attending sunday school.

Other findings of interest:

a) 1892 -- http://negroartist.com/writings/Civil%20War%20era%20and%20post%20Civil%20War/Life%20and%20Times%20of%20Frederick%20Dou.pdf

Frederick Douglass autobiography —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unclesmrgol (talk • contribs) 05:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Note All my wife's family are Torres Strait Islanders (indigenous people of the Torres Strait Islands Australia) and always refer to their children as piccaninny/s in a non-offensive way in creole.05:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mobileluke (talk • contribs)

Yes the Aborigine thing seems well-founded. I have another sort of "source", which is a humorous 1987 song by country legend Slim Dusty called "Boomerang". One line goes: "And every piccaninny knows, that's where the roly-poly goes." Though I have no idea what roly-poly is referring to here (probably the animal of this name), the first part of the line seems to mean "every native (indigenous) Australian knows". -andy 77.191.194.136 (talk) 02:22, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

"I asked an old dark man where the roly-poly goes

And he told me as only a dark fella can

That the big fella Dabble-Dabble lives on those

A big fella Dabble-Dabble lives on those

A big fella Dabble-Dabble lives on those

And every picaninny knows:

That's where the roly-poly goes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_roly-poly#:~:text=Jam%20roly%2Dpoly%2C%20shirt%2D,roll%2C%20then%20steamed%20or%20baked.

Slim Dusty is implying that the "big fella from Dabble-dabble" subsists on suet pudding for their comestibles and nourishment.

It is readily available as a packaged cake, from Woolworths, Coles, and IGA supermarkets. It is the equivalent of a lamington without chocolate or coconut.

Signed - Little Ragged Blossom — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.184.24.3 (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Boris Johnson

Should there be a section here that takes in Boris Johnson's 'Picanninies' and 'Watermelon smile' together?--Rolec Dubbing (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The entire section about Boris Johnson is misrepresenting the original article by the Mayor. In the article he intentionally used outdated colonial ideas as a parody for the behaviour of Tony Blair as the former PM conducted his foreign policy. At no point did he comment on black people, it was purely a comment on Blair. Presenting it as otherwise is only ever an interpretation from ignorance or constructed to mislead for political reasons. --86.162.4.202 (talk) 01:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Confusion of Image and Word

I feel that this whole article has confused two different things: the (often racist)word 'Piccaninny' and the (often racist but differently so) image of a black child with a wide smile eating melon. These aren't the same. For example, there are no grounds given for attaching the word 'piccaninny' to the Beano image. Are there any grounds for attaching the image to any use of 'piccaninny' outside a very small area of the southern USA?

Someone needs to edit this whole article. OldTownAdge (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Unbalanced introduction

The introduction to this article is incorrect and needs to be changed. The usage and inferences of the term clearly vary considerably depending on the context, from wholly inoffensive usage (eg by ethnic groups) through patronising but benevolent usage, to derogatory racist usage. It is simply wrong to state the term is "offensive, derogatory" every time it is used. Elroch (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Evidence for "Pickney-negger"?

As a person of West indian descent, I have never heard of this. Can anyone find any evidence for this usage? ChikeJ (talk) 07:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated Folk Etymologies

The entire final paragraph of the Usage section consists of unsubstantiated folk etymologies. I'm tempted to just delete it, but perhaps an Etymology section should be added, with the details of the real origins of the term also list these (apparently) common misconceptions. -- Karatorian (talk) 02:00, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Uncle Tom's Cabin

The word "picaninny" does not occur in Stowe's book. So how was it popularised as a result? Of course, the character "Topsy" was picked up and used and abused in many minstrel shows - was this where it came from? Chris55 (talk) 09:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

1755 usage

Samuel Foote in his nonsense prose poem The Grand Panjandrum used "picninnies". It's impossible to draw any conclusions from the text what he thought the word meant or implied. But there's an 1885 illustrated edition that shows them as cutesy white children. Choor monster (talk) 16:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Etymology: "Picayune?"

Could the origin of this word come from "picayune" or could it be that both words have a common origin, the Spanish for "small?"

I could see "picayune" easily however transformed to "pickaninny."--64.134.236.154 (talk) --Jrm2007 (talk) 04:15, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

etymology

It might come from the elission of Pequenho Ninho small child in Portuguese.RichardBond (talk) 23:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

That sounds very reasonable.--Jrm2007 (talk) 22:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Not at all: "Ninho" means "nest" in Portuguese. You’re confusing it with similarly sounding Spanish "niño", which means indeed "[male] child", but which has no productive cognate in Portuguese. As for the word *"pequenho", it’s just wrong, in either language. The etymology of "pickaninny" as (ultimately) deriving from Portuguese "pequenino" (hypocoristic / diminutive form of "pequeno" = "small", "little") is clearly given in the article already, no need for more real time folk etymology. Tuvalkin (talk) 13:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Citations

In the section "Examples" in the main article a list of authors, artists and politicians who, at various times in recent and distant history, have used the term is presented. Citations are not offered for most entries. Furthermore, the purpose of such a list seems questionable. The author(s) of the list seem(s) interested merely in denouncing any utterance of the word, regardless of the mores or trends of the day. In addition, very little context is offered for any of the "offending" (and alleged) citations (for example, in fiction, language is used for characterization and an utterance may be taken to say more about a character than the author; at the very least this question should be acknowledged). Perhaps this section should be flagged for a "clean-up".

Yes, I think the reference to Boris Johnson in particular gives undue weight to an isolated event that is disproportionate to its significance to the article topic, as in WP:BALASP. Hauroko (talk) 12:43, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Picardjewy Anglican and Lutheran and other pre-Calvinist slur for Calvinists..

Can it be mentioned that the word: Picardjewy seems influenced by the word: Pickaninny, indeed, Barbadian Anglicans seem to of been the first to use Picardjewy, minding Calvinist of Calvinism's links to Crypto Jew John Calvin whom's lastname started off as: Cohen, then Cauin, and lastly Calvin. Picardjewy also by dint that John Calvin was born in Noyon in Picardy, which went on to be annexed into France just after John Calvin's death. And furthermore Barbadians remind the new world Calvinists (in Bajan and West Indian eyes a crypto-Jewish movement) links with the holocaust against of the indigenous Americans and the Jewish role also behind the Atlantic slave trade. Endly: despite the aforesaid, it must be noted that Barbados is a highly Zionist nation nowadays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.220.156.148 (talk) 05:02, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Questions about offensive use

1. Who decides which words are offensive? "Society" is nobody. 2. There are comments here about the term becoming offensive. The article should describe when and how this happened. It wasn't overnight. Someone was offended by it and that feeling spread. It seems we're missing a lot here. CsikosLo (talk) 17:52, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Resistant to pain?

Why is this in the lead paragraph? It is substantiated, if at all, in a book in which the stereotype of resistance to pain is a major part of the author's thesis. That doesn't make it historically true. Moreover, saying the word always characterized something seems inherently untrue. Where's the evidence?

According to the scholar Robin Bernstein, who describes the meaning in the context of the United States, the pickaninny is characterized by three qualities: "the figure is always juvenile, always of color, and always resistant if not immune to pain".[3] These three qualifiers demonstrate the dehumanizing nature of the pickaninny caricature and are reflective of the predominantly colonial society in which its use was popularised, where Portuguese values predominated.

Second, where does the author (and thereby Wikipedia) get the idea that there is a set of "Portuguese" values? So all Portuguese, today and in the past, endorse(d) subjugating the negro race? This statement by the author is itself an ethnic slur. Finally, it says the term was always used for denoting figures that were juvenile and of color. That's pretty remarkable for a term that actually means little dark children (in English). If the author is asserting that's how the Portuguese used it, that wasn't true then and it isn't true today. Dynasteria (talk) 11:29, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Lead paragraph

Hi, this Wikipedia article seems to be well researched and balanced. The statements made in the lead paragraph though, do not seem to represent the rest of the article well and describe the term as a historic racial slur, although the rest of the article can be summarized as stating, that the term was historically used in a variety of ways, but is now considered to be a non-desired term by many. I would recommend using a more general wording in the lead paragraph and to move the information that is now in the lead paragraph into the paragraph "controversial usage". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.79.69.114 (talk) 06:42, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I would agree with the previous contributor. I came to the main page earlier today to learn more about the word "picaninny" and was immediately put off by the clearly biased introduction. Having read the "Talk" page, I then looked at the corresponding talk page for "Negro",followed by the main article thereon, and found a far more balanced introduction which I reproduce below. I would strongly recommend that the article on "Picaninny" be re-cast in a far more neutral light.

"In the English language, Negro (plural Negroes) is a term historically used to denote persons considered to be of Negroid heritage.[1] The term can be construed as offensive, inoffensive, or completely neutral, largely depending on the region or country where it is used. It has various equivalents in other languages of Europe. From the latest United States census figures, approximately 36,000 Americans identify their ethnicity as "Negro".[2]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.114.50 (talk) 11:42, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced quote

This "example" was obviously not intended as part of the lead. I have moved it here for the moment - someone may have a better idea of where it should go!

• • From “Jedediah Smith - No Ordinary Mountain Man” by Barton H. Barbour, University of Oklahoma Press 2009 page 133: At Mission San Gabriel during Jed. Smith’s Southwest Expedition of 1826-1827, his clerk, Harrison Rogers had a midnight female visitor to his room. He journaled, “One came into my lodgings last night and asked me to make here a Blanco Pickaninia, which being interpreted, is to get here a white child-and I must say...I was a shamed, and did not gratify her...seeing here so forward...”

--Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:25, 8 August 2020 (UTC)