Talk:Phosphorus (morning star)

Which is Evening and which is Morning

This article needs to collaberate with the articles Hesperus and Lucifer so that readers can understand that Lucifer is an evening star (fallen star), but translated as a morning star. The article Hesperus says Roman Vesper is evening or supper. Yet translators are using the expression light-bearer and here says Eos means dawn. Eos and its Heos separates the word as Eos-phorus in which the Lucifer article says phorus is the Latin ferre (lucem ferre). Yet sphorus is clearly related sphere, (eo-sphorus).98.144.71.174 (talk) 12:52, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

In English, "Lucifer" normally means the Devil or the chief devil. "Sphere" comes from Greek σφαῖρα (sphaira), a ball, Latinized as sphaera; there is no Greek word σφόρος (sphoros), which would be Latinized as sphorus; the Greek suffix -φορος (phoros), Latinized as -phorus and corresponding to the Latin suffix -fer, is found in many hundreds of Greek words: ἀασιφόρος, ἀειφόρος, ἀεθλοφόρος, ἀετοφόρος, ἀγαλματοφόρος, ἀγαθοφόρος, ἁγιαφόρος, αἰγειροφόρος, αἱματηφόρος, αἰχμοφόρος, ἀκανθοφόρος, ἀκεσφόρος, ἀκοντοφόρος, ἀκρατοφόρος, ἀκτινοφόρος, ἀλαβαστροφόρος, ἁλοφόρος, ἀμαλλοφόρος, ἀμφορεαφόρος, ἀμνοφόρος, ἀμπελοφόρος ... - to mention only a few of the words beginning with alpha, the first letter of the Greek alphabet, that have that ending. Esoglou (talk) 19:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

-phoros/-phorus; -bringer?

My understanding was that "-phoros" means "to bear," not "to bring." Thus phosphorus (and lucifer) mean "the light-bearer." not "the light-bringer." It is a subtle difference but it does change the meaning. Phosphorus/lucifer contains or holds the light, not necessarily brings the light. The ovary for example is the oophor (as in oophorectomy) because it bears/contains--though it is the fallopian tube that actively brings the egg from the ovary to the uterus. Regardless, does anyone have any thoughts on this translation of "-phorus" and does it improve the article to render phosphorus/lucifer as the light-bearer rather than the light-bringer? I think it does. MorbidAnatomy (talk) 12:53, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The meaning of -φόρος and the verb φέρω depends on the context. It can mean either "to bear away" or "to bear hither" = "to bring". To show that I am not making up my own translation, I will give a few of the many instances in the New Testament in which the verb is used and means "to bring". Take Matthew 14:18 φέρετέ μοι αὐτούς ὧδε (bring them here to me); 17:17 φέρετέ μοι αὐτὸν ὧδε (bring him here to me) and Mark 9:19 φέρετε αὐτὸν πρός με (bring him to me); Mark 6:27 ἐπέταξεν ἐνεχθῆναι τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ (commanded his head to be brought); 6:55 ἤρξαντο ... τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας περιφέρειν (they began to bring the sick); Mark 12:15 φέρετέ μοι δηνάριον ἵνα ἴδω (bring me a denarius and let me look at it); Luke 5:18-19 φέροντες ἐπὶ κλίνης ... καὶ μὴ εὑρόντες ποίας εἰσενέγκωσιν αὐτὸν (bringing on a bed ... finding no way to bring him in); Luke 15:22 ἐξενέγκατε στολὴν τὴν πρώτην (bring the best robe) ... The morning star is obviously thought of as bringing the light (φῶς) to us, not as bearing the light away with itself. Esoglou (talk) 14:19, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

maybe there is some confusion whit mercury, Mercury sing is same than Venus but it has horns. Mercury can be observed for only a brief period during either morning or evening twilight. As mythological character mercury is rabbit, goat like animal and included to Orpheus which has not been at roman mythology. Thinking .... Nonnos of Peloponnese say like this about lusifer: gate wondered at the strange and unreal day, Dawn trembled, and star Lucifer cried out. 333 " ' Where are you hurrying, dear boy ? Why have you gone mad with reins in your hand ? Spare your headstrong lash ! Beware of these two companies— both planets and company of fixed stars, lest bold Orion kill you with his knife, lest ancient Bootes hit you with fiery cudgel.

Half moon above Venus sing can be interpreted as horns and Orpheus was famous about horny behavior. and so on it goes in mythologies around world.

Rendered as Ἠοσφόρον in Theogony?

In H. G. Evelyn-White's translation of Hesiod's Theogony, it reads, "And after these Erigeneia bare the star Eosphorus (Dawn-bringer), and the gleaming stars with which heaven is crowned" (p. 107).

In Thomas Cooke's translation of Hesiod's Theogony, it reads, "The morning-star, fair Lucifer, she bore, / And ornaments of Heav'n, ten thousand more" (p. 767, lines 591–92).

(It appears Cooke had a penchant for rendering names in Latin.)

In any event, I wanted to find this excerpt in the original Greek (a language I do not read, mind you).  My search led me to Θεογονία on Wikisource, which renders the verse thusly (lines 378–382):

Ἀστραίῳ δ᾽ Ἠὼς ἀνέμους τέκε καρτεροθύμους,
ἀργέστην Ζέφυρον Βορέην τ᾽ αἰψηροκέλευθον
καὶ Νότον, ἐν φιλότητι θεὰ θεῷ εὐνηθεῖσα.
τοὺς δὲ μέτ᾽ ἀστέρα τίκτ' Ἠοσφόρον Ἠριγένεια
ἄστρα τε λαμπετόωντα, τά τ᾽ οὐρανὸς ἐστεφάνωται.

I do believe this is the correct verse.  If it is not, please correct me.

I also believe that I have highlighted the correct word.  Again, if I have not, please correct me.

What strikes me odd about this is that Ἠοσφόρον does not appear anywhere in the phosphorus (morning star) article, even though both translations shown above do appear in said article.  This is the crux of my confusion, and hopefully someone can clarify this, both directly here on the talk page and, if appropriate, also in the article itself.

My only guess so far is that perhaps this excerpt is in ancient Greek while the article provides modern Greek, or vice versa.

The only other info I have is that Google Translate translates the term as Iosforon (which does not appear to be a word) and that the page prior to the page on which Evelyn-White translates the term as "Eosphorus (Dawn-bringer)," the term appears as Ἑωσφόρος.  Perhaps that info is of no extra help, or perhaps it is.  Either way, if anyone has any info that helps to clarify my aforementioned confusion, I look forward to hearing it.

Thanks in advance,
allixpeeke (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2016 (UTC)