Talk:Phish/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: David Fuchs (talk · contribs) 01:48, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Look for comments end of this week. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 01:48, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Hey, followup to not leave you hanging. I lost the review I had written up, and so am in the process of redoing it. I'm in the middle of drafting an arbitration case at the moment so things are going to be a bit more delayed. Sorry for the wait. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 23:11, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for bearing with me. It occurred to me checking out this article that I'd actually reviewed it for GA Sweeps more than a decade (!) ago. The article has definitely improved since then, but I see some remaining issues before it can reach GA status.

• General/Organization:
  • The article as it currently stands feels like it doesn't really follow a cohesive summary style. The band's history mostly reads in a repetitious format of "On X date, Y happened", and it seems unclear why the disbandment and hiatus sections give over sections about relatively irrelevant details that don't relate directly to the band. There's a lot of stubby one or two-sentence pseudoparagraphs that suggest either they need fleshing out, the facts need to be collated or reorganized, or cut entirely. Speaking most generally, the article doesn't make a good argument for why individual tours or concerts are notable enough to be mentioned versus in aggregate.
• Prose:
  • There's places where quotes are unattributed and should be, e.g. "oriented around group improvisation and super-extended grooves"
  • The band has two flavors of Ben & Jerry's ice cream named after them - Phish Food, introduced in 1997, and It's Ice...Cream, a limited-edition flavor named after their song "It's Ice", which was available in 2018 and 2019. Phish's portion of the proceeds from these flavors are donated to the Waterwheel Foundation, the band's non-profit organization that supports causes such as clean water, land conservation, urban gardening, and more.[271]—this is partially repetitious with a previous line.
  • In 2017, Jon Fishman was elected to the board of selectmen in Lincolnville, Maine.—and this is trivia.
  • In terms of being sufficiently broad in coverage, I feel that the article presently doesn't do a good job of actually explaining why the band is important. You have a quote from Rolling Stone about them being one of the most important bands of the 1990s, but that information is not materially expanded on in the article itself (also a violation of WP:LEAD.)
• References:
  • References need consistent formatting; sometimes there are publishers included, sometimes not, and there are occasionally other missing fields. Sometimes websites are given by url (glide magazine.com) and elsewhere spelled out (Glide Magazine.) There's also an unformatted dead link.
  • There's still a few apparently unreferenced lines throughout the article, e.g. Fishman recorded an album with his blues rock side-project Pork Tornado in 2002., In October 1997, the band released their second live album Slip Stitch and Pass, which featured selections from their March 1997 concert at the Markthalle Hamburg in Hamburg, Germany.
  • What makes Relix Media, Ultimate Classic Rock, Jambase, LFLM, and Phish.net reliable sources?
  • I did a spot-check of sources attributed to refs 6, 8, 11, 21, 40, 54, 88, 113, 159, 183, 204, 256, and 269. I didn't spot issues with close paraphrasing/plagiarism.
    • Ref 113 is dead.
    • Ref 183 doesn't mention the other bands mentioned in the wiki prose.
• Media:
  • File:Alpine.jpg doesn't appear to have proper author/source information to demonstrate it's free to use. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:48, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:48, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi there! Don't have a ton of time today to go over much, but here's my responses for some of this

• • I chopped out the Lincolnville and Ben & Jerry's sections from the video games and other appearances section. Agree with you on both counts
  • I replaced 113 with another reference
  • I replaced 183 with a NY Times ref that refers to those three bands as the main stage headliners
  • The differences in reference formatting is on me probably, I have been using the cite web autofill template and I imagine I wasn't paying too closely to what metadata it was scraping or needed to be fixed
  • Relix has been a major music magazine since 1974, and I don't think it's even been questioned as a reliable source for jam-band type music. There are sources on its page that mention it as notable (although that page isn't in especially great shape). Some of the sources in here from Relix were interviews with the band members conducted by the magazine. I'll have to get back to you on Jambase and L4LM, but I also don't think they've been ruled as unreliable. In general, however, those are the three websites that do a majority of reporting on jam band acts. Phish.net was at one point a quasi-official website. It is referred to in the Puterbaugh book beginning on page 102, and it describes the site's importance in the history of the band. Would it be better to mention the site in prose as opposed to using it as a source?
  • I agree the page currently leans too much on history and not enough on impact. I will look around for some sources to construct that out of. For instance, here's a good reference on the band's impact on live music and festival culture that could be worked into the page, and another on their influence on the foundation of Bonnaroo. I'm sure I can find a few more references like that to create a legacy and impact section.
  • Same thing with the individual tours, particularly the post-2009 ones. Maybe every year's worth of tours need to be mentioned, just the important ones/the ones with references that aren't more than just concert announcements.

I will work to fix some of the issues here within the week. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 21:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

More updates on the Phish front:

• • Added citations for Pork Tornado and Slip Stitch and Pass
  • Made some baby-steps on the legacy and influence section. I'll have to dig a little deeper here. Was there anything specific you were looking to be included so I can narrow it down to that?
  • In the next few days, I'll go over the references and the paragraph stuff. I've already cut out the side-project sections from the hiatus and break-up sections, and I'll go through the later history sections to cull out unimportant details about the last 10 or so years that probably don't need to be in the article. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 03:49, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Update - I've just cut some tour announcement and venue listing-type information from the page, cutting down the size of the last three history sections. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 04:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Second update: Sorry about the delay here. Wikipedia has not been on my mind over the last week, but I'll work on some of the suggested changes that I haven't gotten to over this and next week. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 03:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey User:Doc Strange, checking in. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 13:44, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Hiya! Still working on the influences and legacy sections, and I've added a few sources that I had been planning to add. The thing I am focusing on now is your observation that the article didn't do a good job of explaining why Phish is important. Do you think that's improved since? What more would you like to see on that front? Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 15:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take a look this weekend. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

The article is looking much better insofar as comprehensiveness for the topic subject. I think you've got enough in there it probably meets the threshold for GA requirements. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, good to hear. Looks like the last thing I need to take care is the reference formatting. I'll work on that, and I'll post here again once that's all sorted. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 04:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey any update? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I've done the first 60 references in the article, and a bit more copy-editing, and I'll be doing the rest some-time this week. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 19:30, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Okay I think I fixed every reference now. Let me know if I've missed any of them. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 02:14, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take a look at the article with fresh eyes tomorrow. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 14:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)