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GA Review

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More comments to kome on usertalk. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 04:21, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Logan McCree/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tamzin (talk · contribs) 03:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General discussion

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Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Hi Pretzelles! I aim to take a look at this over the next few days (and maybe a bit tonight, we'll see). I happen to have just put a queer pornography article up for GAN myself, so it seems fitting for me to review this one. You can see Talk:Joseph (art model)/GA1 for a sense of my style as a GA reviewer—although expect me to be stricter on sourcing than there, given that this is a BLP. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to reply in this subsection. I'll put more itemized concerns in subsections below, in a bulleted format; you can reply to the bulleted items inline after some marker, as Ppt91 did in that example, or on a new line as Sammi Brie did in Talk:Vermont Public/GA1. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 03:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, a note I always mean to give: If I say "I suggest", "what I would do", etc., then that's really all I mean. My goal is to help you make this article the best it can be, and to that end I may give writing suggestions that go beyond the GA criteria, but you're entirely welcome to disregard anything I say that is phrased that way. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 04:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the title the article should be at? Recent coverage seems to all call him by his birth name, and that is the name under which he ran for office. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 01:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All right, done with my initial review. This is a really interesting article, but has nontrivial BLP and NPOV issues as stands. I've listed quite a few things to resolve, but I understand this is your first nomination, so I've also given what I hope is a clear framework for how to resolve all these issues. Please let me know if you have any questions. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 04:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Tamzin:, thanks for giving this a look and a thorough review! :D I should hopefully start making my way through things properly tomorrow, but it all looks fairly easy to follow from the quick glance! Pretzelles (talk) 01:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen the updates! Will be having a look at them either later tonight or tomorrow :) Pretzelles (talk) 19:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I've finally finished those updates. :) No rush on responding. (I do feel like I had some stray thought to mention, but now I can't remember. I'll add it if it comes back to me.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 22:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Finally got around to fixing those! It's been a busy weekend but it's over now! Left a couple of questions and things to be looked at, but nothing too major! Pretzelles (talk) 01:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I remembered the other thing! There's a lot of redlinks in the article. Now, I'm a big redlink enthusiast, so I'm not complaining about that. But are all of these people who are presumptively notable: adult entertainers Roman Ragazzi, Dak Ramsey, Tober Brandt, Ricky Sinz, Scott Tanner, Jack Dragon, and Wilfried Knight; porn exec Tim Valenti; and studio Elite Male? If there's a credible case for notability for all of them, then very well, but I thought I'd ask. Although, if Tanner is going to be redlinked, that is a sufficiently common name that he should probably be redlinked as [[Scott Tanner (adult entertainer)|]] or such. Same may go for Elite Male, which is a division in several athletic leagues, although one could argue that it's unambiguous for something just called Elite Male. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 01:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have removed most of those just for now, I'm sure of them may pass GNG but I don't have the mental energy right now to go through each one and work that out! Pretzelles (talk) 01:02, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so I think I've done everything apart from expanding the lede section, but let me know if there's anything I've missed! Pretzelles (talk) 01:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pretzelles: Thanks! I think the one bit of outstanding business is my question above about the article's title (and by extension what name should be used in prose). -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 02:50, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it makes the most sense under WP:COMMONNAME for the article to be under the Tanzer instead of McCree. Had he not delved into politics I would say the opposite, but it seems the name he is best known under now to the extent where even trade websites like AVN are using Tanzer to refer to him. Would this require a full movement discussion, or can we just... shift it over? Pretzelles (talk) 02:58, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with that assessment. I'll just go ahead and move it. If someone disagrees, they can follow WP:RMUM. (I would leave it to you to move it, but when a page has talk subpages it's more easily moved by an admin/extendedmover.) Then you can do the last round of tweaks to adjust how he's referred to (probably should be Tanzer before and after porn career, McCree during) and, we should be done here! -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 03:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey! I have changed the name throughout the article (leaving it as McCree in the career section), and added a little bit more info to the lede to cover things a bit more. Think that might be it?! Pretzelles (talk) 03:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1: Prose/MoS

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  • Lede needs some more meat on it. There's more in the article that can be mined to give an overall portrait of the subject.
  • the military (lede & § Early life) → "the German military". Maybe pipe Bundeswehr; [1] and [2] both usable as sources
  • heavily-tattooed (×3): drop hyphen per MOS:HYPHEN
  • He is known for his heavily-tattooed body, which he views as an expression of his spiritual beliefs, and was named Performer of the Year at the 2010 GayVN Award: These are two unrelated things, and putting it in one sentence creates the potential ambiguity that the body was named Performer of the Year. Suggest splitting.
  • Their scene together was described by director Ben Leon as 'by far the best scene I have shot with Roman'. Passive voice + first person quote is confusing. Active voice (Ben Leon described...) would remedy this.
  • Best Threeway and Best Threesome at the 2009 Grabby and GayVN awards shows: Append respectively
  • directed by and starring Jake Deckard
  • interest into in child custody issues; and maybe link child custody?
  • Link pro-life? Non-universal political euphemism.
A good question! Per MOS:LINKQUOTE, it is acceptable for targets that correspond to the meaning clearly intended by the quote's author. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 20:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • he claimed to be becoming: Is there a reason to doubt him? he said he was becoming

2a: Ref layout

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  • Be consistent in either linking or not linking publication names.
  • Not required to pass GAN, but FWIW film names in quotation marks in ref titles should be changed to italics per MOS:CONFORM.
Changed, so that it is done! checkY

2b: Citations

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Key:
  • checkY = Verifies without issue
  • checkY = Verifies, but there is something that may be worth addressing
  • ☒N = Blocking issue, but one that can be quickly fixed
  • ☒N = Blocking issue

I will check at least one citation used for every BLP claim, and will spot-check other citations.

  • AVN bio: checkY
  • Ross 2013:
    • checkY Birth name
    • checkY Age at mother's death
    • ☒N Meaning of "McCree" verifies. Reading the source, I understand the religious significance (by implication, the king refers to G-d), but that's not obvious the way you've paraphrased it. I suggest being more explicit, maybe alludes to his love for God
  • Changed to make more clear checkY
    • ☒N Source shows he moved to Balnakeil by 2013, not 2014 (and incidentally, doesn't Jackman 2018 clarify that it's 2012?). Also might be worth considering using a bit of the source's detail as to his relationship to the area in years before moving.
  • Added more information on his connection with the area and lifestyle there checkY
    • checkY Salon & parlor
  • French 2020
    • ☒N The source does not state in its own voice the circumstance of his mother's death. Ross 2013 verifies that she was murdered, but all other details should be attributed to McCree, unless other RS can be cited.
      I've changed the sentence a bit, but still not entirely happy with it. I found a video McCree uploaded where he discusses his childhood and this situation in more detailed, which might help flesh things out a bit more? Obviously it would still be attributed to him, but might make the flow a bit better. (Pinging for further discussion @Tamzin:) - YouTube link here>.
      I think this is an improvement, although it raises MOS:CLAIM issues. It's not that there's a reason to doubt him, just that we can't say it in wikivoice. Something like According to McCree should be fine. (P.S. Pings without a signature don't work, although edit-summary pings work either way. But don't worry, I'm watching this page.)
      Have changed to "according to McCree". What do you think about the video above and adding some more from it?
      I don't think there's anything in it that needs to be add, but if you'd like to add something, I'm happy to take a look.
    • checkY I Am a Men's Rights Activist
  • Meritt 2021:
    • checkY Military service
    • checkY Candidacy
    • ☒N Colleague deaths also need attribution to McCree
Done checkY
Done checkY
  • Rice 2008a:
    • checkY Exclusive contract
    • checkY Jock Itch
  • Featherstone 2007 checkY
  • Rice 2008b:
    • checkY Alongside Roman Ragazzi
    • checkY Leon quote
    • checkY Hotter Than Hell
  • Rice 2009a & Jones 2009
    • checkY Best Solo Scene
    • checkY Threesome. If a citation is going to stand for the latter half of one sentence and then part or all of the next, it's best to reuse the footnote on both (so ... in the second half.[10] They were ... award shows.[10][11]). This is assuming you want to use Rice 2009 for that. It doesn't verify "in the second half", but that is a summary of the film's plot, so no citation is needed (and I'm happy to AGF on the sourcing).
Added reference at the end of first sentence. It says in "Hotter Than Hell Part 2", which is where the second half part comes from. Changed "half" to "part" to make this clear checkY
    • checkY Duo
    • checkY But it's strange to put the Best Duo GayVN nom so far away from his other two
      This was done because of it being a nomination instead of a win, and didn't want the sentence to be too long. Can be changed if you think best!
      Eh, it's up to you. It probably read as stranger to me, in comparing to the source, than it would to a reader. Like I said above, anytime I say something is a suggestion or "may be worth addressing" (the yellow check's description), it really means that. I'm not here to make you write an article the exact way I would.
  • Rice 2008c: checkY Although the bloodiness of the shootout seems like the operative detail in the source; might be worth mentioning.
    Mentioned nature of shootout checkY
  • Skee 2009: ☒N Critical issue here: McCree and Sinz' characters raped Tanner's character. Just to be ultra-clear for WP:BLP reasons, it might be best to add "simulated" too, something like a simulated rape scene in which McCree and Ricky Sinz's characters assault...
    I've changed the sentence a bit to emphasise the simulation aspect and also the mention of the characters specifically, so hopefully that should be good now.
    checkY
  • Rice 2009c:
    • checkY To the Last Man Grabby
    • checkY Drifter Grabbies
  • Jones 2009:
    • checkY To the Last Man GayVN
    • checkY Drifter GayVN
    • checkY Performer of the Year
  • Queer Excursions checkY (at least from what I can preview, rest AGF). However, you're citing the whole book, where this is just one essay. You should set the current "authors" as editors, and set chapter of "The Sex-Machine, the Full-Body Tattoo, and the Hermaphrodite: Gay Sexual Cinema, Audience Reception, and Fractal Recursivity" and author William L. Leap.
Done checkY
  • Rice 2009b: ☒N Verifies most, but doesn't seem consistent with your description as fictional 'dream team'. Could you explain in slightly more detail what it means to be on the "dream team"?
    Expanded "dream team" section a bit, can do more if you feel it's necessary!
    Thanks! I'm still not entirely sure what "fictional" means, though. I assume you mean that it's not a real team, in the sense that the All-America team isn't a real team? I don't think that will be clear to most readers, though.
    Would calling it "hypothetical" work better maybe? Or just removing the adjective in its entirety?
    I think the adjective adds more confusion than it removes, yeah. If you want to be 100% clear that it's not a real team, you could say something like "dream team" of fan favourites (and then reword the rest of the sentence), but I'm not sure if that's necessary.
    • Have removed the adjective and it sounds better now!
  • GayVN 2009a: ☒N Source does not verify that McCree and D'Angelo were in a relationship beyond being "lovers". If no source can be found other than this one, "relationship" needs to be clarified, since most readers will take that to mean a romantic one.
Clarified sexual nature of relationship - "relationship">"sexual experiences" checkY
Removed Giants 2 due to ambiguity checkY
  • Jackman 2018a:
    • checkY Left industry 2012
    • ☒N on child custody → MRA connection. The source says that his interest in child custody that led Tanzer to make the jump to becoming a full-on MRA, but doesn't say that that interest was novel.
      changed it from "after developing", as not known when it developed. Let me know if this needs more.
      I think this is pretty good handling. Are there any sources on why he was interested in custody issues? Jackman notes that it's surprising he cared, but then doesn't really get into why he did.
      I haven't been able to find any that aren't primary sources/interviews where he talks about the topic; not sure if best to leave for now?
      Yeah, if there's nothing, then there's nothing. checkY
    • checkY Gender equality
    • checkY Straight porn criticism
    • checkY Personal porn positivity
    • ☒N Art gallery: Only verifies as of 2018. Needs an {{as of}}
Done checkY
    • ☒N Source verifies gay-for-pay allegations, but does not mention him identifying as straight, just that he resumed dating women. (Btw you have two back-to-back cites to the same source here.)
Clarified and fixed ref checkY
    • ☒N "For a while" before the "asexual but with a preference for men" quote is critical context, the omission of which renders it inaccurate. The women/family bit verifies, but it might be better to make clear that it's the same interview, or to move it into the part flagged above regarding heterosexuality.
      Have changed things around a bit here, and would appreciate thoughts on whether it's good/needs to be changed a bit more!
      Just for clarity of timing, I would change and had previously to and that he had previously
      Done checkY
  • Avery 2021
    • checkY Candidacy
    • ☒N Negative views of porn: AVN attributes this to the Daily Mail, which is deprecated. A secondary source quoting the Mail establishes due weight, but you still need to attribute in-text.
      Attributed to the Mail, let me know if needs work.
      Works, but here also "claimed" isn't the best word. I think you could say quoted McCree as saying
      Changed to "quoted McCree as saying that he had". Should be done!
      checkY
    • checkY Firefighter
    • checkY Heterosexual, dating a woman
    • (Note for all of these: Most of this could also be sourced to Meritt 2021, a more prestigious source.)
  • Nynäs 2021:
    • ☒N Another case of underuse to the extent of not being representative. The quote Since I was a little boy I felt that I am not 100 % human and I felt very connected to angels. I still believe that I am part angel and as a symbol for my deep connection with the heavenly warriors I got my own armature as a tattoo should be reflected in more than just felt connected to angels from a young age.
      Expanded this a bit more with a direct quote from McCree. Think it is good now!
      That resolves most of it, yeah! I think explaining may introduce a minor NPOV issue though, because it exits his religious POV and subtly shifts into wikivoice. Maybe giving him a?
      Done checkY
    • Blue question mark? I'm not seeing the bit about the tattoo of his own body, but I might just be missing it. Could you point me to it?
      Yes! It's the end of the second last paragraph on page 341 when he says a symbol for my deep connection with the heavenly warriors I got my own armature as a tattoo. If you have different ideas on what that could mean, it would be good to hear!
      That reads to me as referring to the angel wing tattoo. Are there any photos of him having a tattoo of his own body, or some other reason to think that that in particular is what he meant?
      There's the outline of a person's body in the centre of his torso in this image. I don't think it makes sense for armature to refer to the angel tattoo as he refers to it as "my own" armature as opposed to that of an angel. Although he does consider himself part angel, now that I think about it... so who knows really?
      Well I'm not sure if you can get from this to conclusively saying An outline of his own body, representing his connection to angels without running into WP:SYNTH issues. "Armature" is just too vague a word in this context, especially without a specific tattoo clearly being referred to. Looking at the photo you link, it's definitely reasonable to take that as a tattoo of his own body, and maybe you could describe that as A figure similar to McCree's own tattooed body, citing the image itself I guess? But then that runs into the problem that if no RS has ever commented on that tattoo, is it worth giving weight to?
      I've removed the reference to the "armature" tattoo for now, just because of the amount of confusion regarding what exactly it refers to. I'm sure it can be added back in at some point if other RS report on it.
  • Findlay 2022 & Highland Council: checkY
  • Wade 2021: ☒N He qualifies "centrist" with "usually", so we should too. Also, I don't think society's liberal nature is an accurate paraphrase of his statement about too much liberalism. I would quote it or paraphrase more directly.
    Have expanded on this point with a direct quote, let me know how it looks.
    Works, although per MOS:QUOTEPOV, quotation marks should be avoided around 'usually'. It's fine to use that word in wikivoice here. Speaking of wikivoice, but feels should probably be but says he feels
    Done checkY
  • Tabberer 2021: checkY
  • BBC 2020: checkY
  • ICMI21: checkY Although a secondary source would be preferable, especially for the session with Benjamin.
    Didn't manage to find a secondary source on ICMI21, but added some information about McCree and Benjamin's former connections. Let me know what you think.
    I think that avoids any question that McCree wouldn't want to be associated with Benjamin. I'd suggest in-text attribution for the ICMI21 source, though.
    Done checkY
  • Jackman 2018b: checkY

3a: Broadness & 4: Neutrality

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  • Given the inclusion of a number of controversial details of McCree's life, the omission of the strong positive characterization of his role in his community in [3] could raise NPOV issues.
Have mentioned his popularity in the community and halloween festival work. Also mentioned speaking out against porn addiction from the same article, might need checking whether the sentence works well.
  • And at the same time, it might be good to discuss more what the Scottish Family Party believes. Avery 2021 cites The National to that end. Tabberer 2021 also emphasizes the party's views, and quotes his favorable characterization of their stance on sex education.
Have added an LGBT rights section with some discussion of the party's views and his praise of them checkY
  • Similarly, is there a reason to omit his statements about "LGBT indoctrination" quoted in Avery 2021?
Same as above! checkY
  • In 2020, McCree founded the group Gender Parity UK, which aims to ensure gender parity in British society raises NPOV issues in two directions: It only cites primary sources, raising the question of if this is WP:DUE based on secondary source coverage. But if it is DUE, I'm not convinced that that description of the group's views is neutral. It might be how they perceive themself, but not necessarily how, say, a feminist group would. Applies also to gender parity in lede.
Have tried to tackle this the best I can - removed a reference from their manifesto and added which fights against alleged discrimination against men and boys from the ICMI website which hopefully leans towards NPOV. Have added a reference about march held by the group with direct quote from McCree as to what he sees it's purpose being. Le me know if needs further work or removing entirely!
  • Similarly, rejects modern feminism's alleged move from egalitarianism is a bit weasel-y. Maybe criticizes what he sees as modern feminism moving away from egalitarianism
Done checkY

6: Media

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron talk 09:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(
)

Improved to Good Article status by Pretzelles (talk). Self-nominated at 19:40, 30 January 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Philipp Tanzer; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: None required.

Overall: All hooks approved, but I think ALT0 is the best. The infobox picture could be added if the nominator wishes. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for review! Will pass on the image hook, unless there is a specific shortage of them, Pretzelles (talk) 23:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Nationality/citizenship

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Sources say he is 'German'. GiantSnowman 11:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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