Talk:Philip Michael Goldvarg

Discussion

Regarding the reverts of my article cleanup:

• The article text is copied from other websites (and whether Goldvarg's poems were self-published is irrelevant). That is a copyright violation and not permitted in Wikipedia.
• I changed the formatting so it met the guidelines in the manual of style (e.g. removing the embedded external links)
• I removed unreliable sources per the Verifiability policy.

If you have an issue with something I've done, please address that particular item, rather than reverting the whole lot. I don't understand what "dont try to remove info without editing" means - I am editing by removing irrelevant material, e.g. why would a reader care what Rebecca Morrison thinks - who is she and who cares? Why are there so many spam links to "Poems for All"? Please address these issues, rather than reverting back to a copyright-violating, poorly-formatted mess. Somno (talk) 13:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Also "they properly cited" - no, they're not. Linking to a "magazine" hosted on Freewebs is not a proper citation. Linking to "Poemsforall.com" is not a proper citation. Linking to a picture that proves nothing is not a proper citation. Please read the Verifiability policy and some more about reliable sources before claiming things are "properly cited". Somno (talk) 13:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

What copyright violation exist, refer what you mean exactly. All citations properly sourced and referenced.

You removed embedded links instead referencing them properly. Actually you trimmed all the article.

Again without adding any more reliable info you cut out all links trying to minimize article instead searching better references.

Before deleting text or link, publish them here what issues they have so we can discuss. You deleted almost all so undoing it totally is better. Before deleting almost anything you should first discuss one by one. Rebbeca Morrison aka "eskimo pie girl" is also another leading local poet which has a "Sacramento Poetry, Art and Music" portal, also doing poem workshops like phil, they do know each other in real life, the publisher of poems for all series also has a bookstore where phil and rebecca stage poem readings and workshops. Kasaalan (talk) 13:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Poems for all is a real publisher in book form, that publishes real books, and distribute into the town for free. Yes it is proper citing. Kasaalan (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Also the freewebs you mention is the webpage of an actual jewish magazine published in real life. Yes it is proper citing. Corrected the link, go look if you like. Kasaalan (talk) 13:28, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Examples of the copyright violations:

• "His collections of poetry: Palabras de Elena , Chiapas en el Corazón and Cantos de Chihuahua, are stilll unpublished in book form, but published in various periodicals and journals" (here)
• "His two collections of poetry, Palabras de Elena, Chiapas en el Corazón and Cantos de Chihuahua, are stilll unpublished in book form, but published in various periodicals and journals" (this article, until the spelling mistake was fixed)
• "He has been the featured reader at many readings; UC Santa Barbara, Imperial Valley College, Sac State, Sac City, San Francisco, Luna's, La Raza/Galeria Posada, etc" (here)
• "He was the featured reader at many readings, often at local schools; UC Santa Barbara, Imperial Valley College, Sac State, Sac City, San Francisco, Luna's, La Raza/Galeria Posada, etc." (this article)

Hopefully that clarifies the plagiarism and copyright infringement issue. This can only be addressed by rewriting content in your own words - which is what I did when I edited the article.

• Rebecca Morrison is non-notable unless proven otherwise, so no reader will care that she called Goldvarg a "poetry saint". This is the kind of sentimental guff that only friends and family care about and is not suitable for an encyclopedia.
• Again, no, it is not a "proper citing" to link just to poemsforall.com (reference 4). That is the website's homepage, not a specific reference that supports the text.
• No reputable magazine uses Freewebs to host their website, so therefore that magazine is not worth mentioning.

There is a distinct difference between what is relevant to an encyclopedia and what is relevant to Goldvarg's friends. You also need to read the manual of style. Embedded external links are not acceptable, and neither is italicising of text in quotes. Hope that helps. Somno (talk) 13:43, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

In regards to the three "related links" you've just added to the talk page - two are blogs, which are not reliable sources, and I'm not sure why you've linked the third. Somno (talk) 13:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

The article actually still stub, I am working on it someonelse removed stub part, but no it is not copyright infridgement at all, first the sources states they dont believe in copyright at all second i gave the correct references for the quotes I make, some are quotes, rest are reworded. Yet if you have good intentions on copyright you could edit the sentences yourself but you just removed them trashing my research time, just like the info. There is not much info to be summarized, so I paraphrased it. Most of the untouched parts are already facts that shouldnt be change. If you have better wording for them why dont you add them instead deleting all info from the article. I provided the links myself, the quotes you refer as plagiarism are sourced references.

They are local poets in Sacramento. They are notable in Sacramento poetry. Their work mostly published locally. Phil Goldvarg is a supporter of Zapatista. Rebbecca Morrison is another local poet. They do various local poetry readings and workshops for public in Sacramento. They are local yet that doesnt mean their poems is not good or anything or unknown to the rest of the world. Alaskan Composer Philip Munger used Phil Goldvarg' poem on his cantata about Rachel Corrie called The Skies are Weeping for a section. Also Rebbecca's site is a leading poetry news portal for Sacramento.

Freewebs has premium services for money. [1] Starter 50 dollars annualy Enhanced 100 dollars annually Pro 250 dollars annualy. So what make you think no notable magazine uses freewebs are you the admin of freewebs. Poetica magazine has the domain poeticamagazine.com maybe they use pro service why do you claim what you don't know. They are among 300 other poem magazines in this list. [2] Not great also not bad they do have some notability.

Also I am referring his work published in a real world published magazine. I am not stating phil goldvarg is the greatest poet of all world by referencing that magazine. So what kind of reliability you like for a published work other than its publisher.

Related links shows she is a local poet, doing local poetry workshops, in name of phil goldvarg there is memorials held each year etc.

His friends you refer are fellow local poets and poem lovers. Not limited to his family and personal friends.

Poems-for-All are notable series if you like do a search on poems-for-all or on its editor richard hansen. Interview with Richard Hansen Both Phil and Rebecca has published poems in the series. In Sacramento Poetry Center they both staged. Rebecca is also active locally Rebecca's Poem Portal Archive for 2007-2009

Also you removed the external links instead moving them to external links section. That is not a leading indication for a good faith edit. In addition to removing extarnal links you also removed names of his published works and e-published work collections. More like removing info than a proper edit.

So if you have good intention why dont you help the article improved, instead butcher it totally. Removing info is easy, adding it is hard Kasaalan (talk) 14:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is still copyright infringement. You copied text directly from other websites, and those websites do not state that their content is public domain or any other licence suitable for Wikipedia. I feel like I'm unnecessarily repeating myself, but it's copyright infringement.

Like you, I'm trying to improve the article. I took the time to rewrite the article to remove the copyright violations and sentimental guff, but you reverted that change. I have attempted to improve the article myself - I just did it in a different way to you.

I don't believe there is any point in including a quote from a nobody in the lead section. Yes, I did remove the embedded external links, rather than moving them to an external links section because they are irrelevant to the article. This article is not here to promote other entities; it is supposed to document Goldvarg's life and achievements in an encyclopedic manner. Please read the external links guideline for information about what sort of things to link to.

Honestly, in the state the article was in when I came across it, I could have taken it to Articles for Deletion or speedy deletion as a non-notable person/copyright violation, rather than put in the time to improve it myself. It's back in that state now, and since I have seen nothing yet that shows Goldvarg meets Wikipedia's Notability policy, it's still really tempting. Please prove that he is notable so I have no reason to take it to AFD. Please fix the article so it meets Wikipedian standards, since you're not allowing me to do it. Somno (talk) 11:15, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

He is a notable local poet. As I said his work used in a notable cantata dedicated to a notable person. You didn't improve article at all just deleted it. And no removing copyright infringement is not improving because there is no copyright infridgement involved. Do you know what paraphrase or referencing is. The source I use are only informative and some facts which even doesnt leave much space for paraphrasing. The sources properly paraphrased and referenced. No copyright infringement involved at all. I even took 3 semester copyright lessons from 2 different teachers at university along with english 201 academic writing, how can you claim this is infringement I cannot possibly tell. I revised more after your infringement warnings. The article do show what achievements he had, yet lacks the cantata about Rachel Corrie part. Which I will also try to implement. And more search will be done.

ARTICLE

Phil Goldvarg (1932-2004)[1] was a Sacramento, California, United States, poet, artist and member of the Zapatista Solidarity Coalition, Los Escritores del Nuevo Sol/Writers of the New Sun and the Z-Rail Poets and Writers Collective, until it disbanded. He was the featured reader at many readings, often at local schools; UC Santa Barbara, Imperial Valley College, Sac State, Sac City, San Francisco, Luna's, La Raza/Galeria Posada, etc. He did workshops with young people, school teachers and tried to aid "the oppressed and socially undernourished" in Sacramento and elsewhere for years. He was called as a "Poetry Saint" by local poet Rebecca Morrison for being "one of the few local poets" that tried to help her at court against the City and County of Sacramento.[2] [3]

He's been published in Ventana Abierta-Revista Latina, Drum Voices Review, Voz de Zapatistas, etc., and various web sites. His two collections of poetry, in 2005 "Palabras Leynie y Cooty Boy" and in 2006 "What Makes Bones Talk" has been published in book form after his death, yet his other collections of poetry "Palabras de Elena", "Chiapas en el Corazón" and "Cantos de Chihuahua" tough "published in various periodicals and journals", are still unpublished in book form.[2][3]

REFERENCES

"Phil is a Sacramento poet, artist and member of the Zapatista Solidarity Coalition, Los Escritores del Nuevo Sol and the Z-Rail Poets and Writers Collective, until it disbanded, but not the friendships. He's been published in Ventana Abierta-Revista Latina, Drum Voices Review, Voz de Zapatistas, etc., and many web sites. He has been the featured reader at many readings; UC Santa Barbara, Imperial Valley College, Sac State, Sac City, San Francisco, Luna's, La Raza/Galeria Posada, etc. Phil often reads at local schools and has done workshops with youth and school teachers. When Eskimo became embroiled in a battle with the City and County of Sacramento, Phil was one of the few local poets who came down to the court to hold her hand. He has worked tirelessly for many years to aid the oppressed and socially undernourished in Sacramento and elsewhere. Phil is definitely on Eskimo's list of Poetry Saints. Eskimo says to ask him if he still has any of his cool coffee cups with poem and picture of Subcomandante Marcos.

"

[2] http://www.eskimopie.net/phil.htm

"Phil was a member of Los Escritores del Nuevo Sol, the Zrail Poets and the Zapatista Solidarity Coalition. His collections of poetry: Palabras de Elena , Chiapas en el Corazón and Cantos de Chihuahua, are still unpublished in book form, but published in various periodicals and journals. Two posthumous collections of his poetry have been published:"

[3] http://www.escritoresdelnuevosol.com/poets_corner.asp?poet_rec=2&poet=Phil

I already revised the paraphrasing even more before your post. Show me a better way to paraphrase. Then I will use yours. Striked parts leave me no paraphrasing because they are the facts. Kasaalan (talk) 13:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Also your claim on you dont have time to improve the article is not true because you have time to write me answers, in the meantime you could very well help improving the article instead deleting it. Kasaalan (talk) 13:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Related Links

About Poems For All Series

Interview with Richard Hansen by Octopus Magazine

Richard Hansen listed in UC Davis University Collection "The Sacramento/San Joaquin Literary Watershed": Regional Small Presses and Local Authors of the Sacamento and San Joaquin Valleys and Sierra Nevada

About.com Mini Review about Poems-for-All

Poems-for-All listed in About.com Publishers & Online Poetry Catalogs

e-Published Poems and Works

Poeticamagazine.com Official Page

The Eagle Is Not Down and Streets Are Made For Walking Poor Magazine Online PNN

not in our name, march de paz and Does Anyone Know Who We're Bombing Today by :THE PEACE PLAN GROUP Published on the internet, with permission

Sunlight short Tale by Phil Goldvarg--Dedicated to all children who have ever been wounded by prejudice Canku Ota (Many Paths) an Online Newsletter Celebrating Native America September 8, 2001 - Issue 44

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Drums For Peltier Familia (Family) and Consecutive Oppression (For Leonard Peltier) on Waving Alien

To A One Man Prison PrisonArt Volume 2, Issue 1 January 2002

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It's About Time Summer 2000 Volume 4 Issue 3 It's About Time Black Panther Party Legacy & Alumni

[12] personal page

His Composed Poems

Text to 'The Skies Are Weeping,' a cantata by Philip Munger Anchorage Daily News in mp3 [13][14]

Keep on Crossing Keep on Crossing is a song written and performed by Willie Venant "Keep on Crossin' is an ongoing art project aimed at the immigration experience with an emphasis on the immigrant's point of view."

Keep on Crossing Keep on Crossing is a techno track written and mixed by Skyler Mic "Keep on Crossin' is an ongoing art project aimed at the immigration experience with an emphasis on the immigrant's point of view."

Published Poems

Poems-For-All_ Phil Goldvarg Tribute "Phil Goldvarg Tribute I admire Sacramento poet Phil Goldvarg and wanted to honor him at his reading tonight at the Luna's Cafe Poetry Unplugged reading. So, I published ten of Phil's poems in PFA which will be distributed for the first time at tonight's event." 4/15/2004

(PFA #361) Marching with the Eagle. Published on Red coverstock.

(PFA #362) The Eagle is Not Down. Published on cinammon coverstock.

(PFA #368) Frida on Paper. Published on white coverstock.

(PFA #369) Full cover.

(PFA #370) Che.'

Para Las Hermanas Who Were Murdered in Juarez in "FACINGFACES 2002 - 04" SELECTED POETRY (Part 2) ["FacingFaces 2001-04 - Selected artworks" E-catalogue to support D.I.S.A. and C.A.U.S.E. "FacingFaces 2001-04 - The art collection" is a complete E-catalogue containing all selected artworks (62 artists - 136 artworks - 26 countries) price 10 Euro + 2 Euro S/H)] cover, Gino d'Artali, editor C.A.U.S.E. Publishing Division, ebook distributed in CD format by C.A.U.S.E. "an international coalition of artists and poets united to create awareness about domestic violence i.e. violence against women and children. "This through art and poetry as displayed on this website as well as through real time international exhibitions; poetry readings; supportive activities for crisis centers and other ngo's active in the field as well as Direct Individual Support Actions (D.I.S.A) and activities."

Rachel (for Rachel Corrie) by Phil Goldvarg In the Fall 2003 Vol. 19, #1 issue of Rebellion in Cincinnati -- Fear of Colors (for Timothy Thomas) by Phil Goldvarg In the Fall 2001 issue Vol. 17, #2 of Struggle a magazine of proletarian revolutionary literature

500 years first published in The Crossroads - Jan. 1998 First read at La Raza/Galeria Posada - Sacramento, Ca Dec. 1991 "La Noche de 500 Years of Resistance" revised as 505 years of Resistance

[15] "Bliss: A Journal of Erotica Not only does this new journal from Elk Grove’s ShiluS Publications contain some really good literature, but it also will be really, really good at getting readers--and whomever they happen to be reading to--in the mood for some sensual exploration. Edited by local poet Rhony Bhopla, Bliss fills a niche--and a few orifices--with poems, stories and drawings that celebrate human sexuality in all its variations. From Lytton Bell’s delightful, exuberant poetic celebration of male anatomy, “Your Cock” (“Your jeans / defiance of gravity / and death”), to the late Phil Goldvarg’s twin examinations of lovemaking as geologic disturbance (“Eruptions” and “Meltdown”), this journal is full of opportunities to examine the sublime flesh. And the emotional component of good sex is not at all neglected, as in Muriel Zeller’s “To Love”: “Words are hard, dirty / edges that only / bodies can soften and clean.” Pick up a copy and read it to someone you really want to get to know inside and out. $12.95 from ShiluS Publications; 4801 Laguna Boulevard, Suite 105-250, Elk Grove, CA 95758." [16] "The SN&R staff really did a great job on your “Best of Sacramento” issue, and on behalf of the contributors to Bliss: A Journal of Erotica, I’m pleased to have been named “Best local erotica.” It was so unexpected, and I’m happy for everyone that’s in the book. [The late] Phil Goldvarg was so particular about his two poems. He imagined them vividly and I remember him telling me to make sure I put them in the proper order. It’s really nice that you picked them out for your review. Rhony Bhopla editor, Bliss: A Journal of Erotica"

[17] On publishing of his book

Awards

MAKING THINGS GROW Jazz Generation/Suzanne Brooks Event Archive 2004 EVENTS MAKING THINGS GROW "Honoring Achievement - Joyfully Remembering the Past, Sharing So Others Can Live - 1st Annual Thanksgiving Fundraiser Event Benefitting Sacramento Area Non-profit Organizations AWARDS TO PEOPLE WHO “MAKE THINGS GROW” - Honorees will include Phil Goldvarg (posthumously) & Luna’s Cafe. The World Premiere of "GREAT WOMEN OF JAZZ":Music & History Live by THE JAZZ GENERATION - ALSO ON THE PROGRAM: Music by Capital City Artists’ Collective At BEN ALI SHRINE, 3262 Marysville Blvd. Sacramento, CA 95615 Creative Concepts Systems"

Tributes

Poets on deck Selected Sacramento Poets by Sacramento Poet Laureate Program supported by the Sacramento Metropolitan Arts Commission "A project of the Sacramento Poet Laureate Program supported by the Sacramento Metropolitan Arts Commission. Poets On Deck is a deck of playing cards that celebrates the evolution of the Sacramento poetry scene. With regrettable omissions all of the poets featured on the cards were active in the creation and solidification of the poetry scene in Sacramento spanning the years roughly from the late 1960’s to the very early 1980’s. The joker cards are “wild” and feature supporters active ‘behind the scenes’ that made these early efforts possible."

Phil Goldvarg (7 of Spades)
Excerpt from "the eagle is not down" Courtesy of Poems for All, No. 362, April 2004
PHIL GOLDVARG (1934–2004) was a poet, activist, humanitarian and an advocate for the poor and underprivileged. He marched with the farm workers and other causes; he gave his all in the halls of the social service agency where he worked for 30 years as a social worker. Phil was a kind and gentle soul who valued his family, friends and the world he lived in even if it wasn’t perfect. His poetry was powerful, confrontational and thought-provoking and reflected his view of the injustices of the world and his community. Que Viva Phil.

Dedicated Poem for Phil Goldvarg by Rebecca Morrison

on the 4th u lie (4th of july) poem dedicated to the truthsayer Phil Goldvarg (r.i.p.) by César A. Cruz- teolol[18][19], 2004

[20] Skin Tax: Poems by Tim Z. Hernandez Publisher Heyday Books, 2004 ISBN 1890771937, 9781890771935 67 pages

Rebecca Morrison

Cover of the published poem of Rebecca Morrison by Poems for All

Cover of another published poem of Rebecca Morrison by Poems for All

Rebecca Morrison's Local Poem Portal Sacramento Poetry Events Archive for 2007-2009

Mentions

Wine & Wordz - CD Release Party for Supanova "Live Music, Poetry, Wine & Food Tasting... It's Sac's best new entertainment event Friday, Jul 11, 2008 Cost: $20 in Advance" "Rail Bridge Cellars, Sacramento's newest Urban Winery, actively supports the arts by becoming "Home" to WINE & WORDZ, Sacramento's newest Independent Artist Showcase and Tasting Event!!! On Friday, July 11th, make your way to Rail Bridge Cellars for another exciting showcase AND CD Release Party for Noah "Supanova" Hayes (a member of the Sacramento Slam Team). Supanova has performed in Europe, Canada, Mexico, Hawai'i, as well as various cities throughout the continental US. Early in his career he shared the stage with Jazz Legends Benny Waters, Panama Francis, Jane Jarvis, and Milt The Judge Hinton. Most recently Supanova has performed with Billy Childs, Carmen Lundy, Ray Nacimiento, Carl Anderson, Rihannon, Frank and Ava Dupree, Vivian Lee, Club Nuvou, KRS-ONE, Prince Rahim of the Furious 5, and such poets as Khiry Malik, Cleo Cartell, Staajabu and V. S. Chochezi (better known as Straight Out Scribes), Terry Moore, The Late Great poets Akilah Jaye & Phil Goldvarg. Supanova releases his newest CD Project @ Wine & Wordz on July 11th. Come out and show your support for another Sacramento Independent artist and get an autographed copy of his new CD!!! Additional special guest performancers will be Ike Torres (Local area Poet), Rye (Arizona Slam Poet & Jazz Vocalist), & Sybil Shanell (Oakland Vocalist). You WON'T want to miss this showcase." [21][22]

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[25] "It’s different for everyone, and depending on the flavor you choose, the center of that particular universe or the catalyst will be different than that of other circles. In the circle in which my poetry was refined, B.L. Kennedy was a nonexistent entity. That’s not a knock on him, but a reality--different circles, different universes, different purposes, different people. For me, the catalysts were Mario Ellis Hill, Straight Out Scribes, Guy Ollison Lamont, Vincent Cobalt, Samuel Eniguez, Angelo Williams, Khiry Malik, Marianna Sousa, Angela Boyce (who is largely responsible for bringing slam poetry to Sacramento, God rest her soul), Phil Goldvarg (God rest his soul) and many others."

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The California Artists Web Portal Listed under Californian Poets History along with 60 other poets by director of Art California, poet Judy Malloy [29][30]

Helen Adam Paula Gunn Allen Alfred Arteaga Benjamin Avery Sam D'Allesandro Gloria Evangelina Anzaldúa John Beecher Angela Boyce Richard Brautigan James Broughton Charles Bukowski Theresa Hak Kyung Cha Ina Coolbrith Henri Coulette The Family Goldschmitt Robert Duncan Larry Eigner William Everson Nora May French Allen Ginsberg Madeline Gleason Phil Goldvarg Barbara Guest Frances Jaffer Robinson Jeffers June Jordan Bob Kaufman Charles Keeler Philip Lamantia Larry Levis Janet Lewis Philomene Long Wilma Elizabeth McDaniel Edwin Markham Diane Middlebrook Dorothy Miles Josephine Miles Joaquin Miller Czeslaw Milosz Andres Montoya Yone Noguchi George Oppen Pat Parker Kenneth Patchen Stuart Z. Perkoff Pedro Pietri Kenneth Rexroth Stan Rice John Rollin Ridge Tomás Rivera Luis Omar Salinas Edward Rowland Sill Anne Silver Paul Smyth Roberta Spear Jack Spicer George Sterling Tony Vaughan Lew Welch Franz Werfel Ivor Winters

Khiry Malik Moore in Literary Evangelist Dec. 02 in his poem "Made in China"

"...your poems aint Straight Out Scribes, Amenjah,
Phil Goldvarg, or even Kahlil Al Mustafa
your poems are supply and demand, they’ve been
mass produced.."

Memorials

Sacramento’s Literary Review and Calendar: Poetry Now June 2005 Vol. 11, No. 06 "Phil Goldvarg Memorial Reading On June 20th, SPC will be hosting a fundraiser for a book of Phil’s work. Samuel Iniguez is raising money to publish a collection of Phil’s work that will honor Phil and his commitment to the community. We ask that you donate at least $5 to this worthy cause. Phil Goldvarg was a generous and giving man, an activist and dynamic poet. Please attend to celebrate his memory and bring Phil-inspired poems to share.

Again, thank you for allowing me this opportunity to serve the poetry community. I am grateful that the membership, volunteers, staff, and board of directors have been so committed to this organization. See you around town and at readings." Martin McIlroy

Zapatista Solidarity Coalition Sacramento, California 27 Август 2008

Poems-For-All_ Phil Goldvarg remembered "Tonight at 7pm Los Escritores Del Nuevo Sol / Writers of the New Sun present an evening of poetry and stories Honoring Phil Goldvarg at the La Raza Galeria Posada, 1022-1024 22nd Street, Mid-Town Sacra. 446-5133. http://www.larazagaleriaposada.org/" 10/12/2007

Poems-For-All_ Phil Goldvarg Dies

Phil Goldvarg's Memorial Service Announcement by Richard Hansen publisher of poems for all

Annual Memorial for Phil Goldvarg

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[33] "Friday (2/8), 7 PM: Alex Escalante: Poet-Traits. Poet Portraits of Jose Montoya, Phil Goldvarg, Felicia McGee and others. Readings by selected poets. Complimentary wine and hors d'oeuvres will be served. Luna's Cafe, 1414 16th St., Sacramento. 916-441-3931."

[34] "Tonight (Thurs., 2/9), Poetry Unplugged presents an evening of no feature—all open mic tributes to Phil Goldvarg and the publishing of the collection, Goldvarg: What Makes Bones Talk, published jointly by the 24th St. Irregular Press and AMP Press. This book contains poems that Phil sent out to the editors and the world via e-mails during the last days that he walked this earth. Phil was an ardent supporter of the Zapatistas, working with the Sacramento-based Zapatista Solidarity Coalition to amplify the voices and the cries for justice coming out of the jungle in Chiapas, Mexico. We honor Phil Goldvarg by honoring his commitment to the Zapatista Struggle. All money raised from the sale of Goldvarg: What Makes Bones Talk will be donated to further the work of the ZSC. (916-443-3424 and/or Zapa@zsc.org.) Copies of the book will be available for purchase ($7), and poets are encouraged to read from their copies when they take to the open mic and stage at Luna’s. A special note: As there is no feature this evening (Phil and the book are the true features), we ask that all those speaking/reading during the first open mic (and time allotted for a feature) read or speak a Phil Goldvarg poem and/or tribute statement in honor of Phil. Luna's Cafe, 1414 16th St., Sac., 8 pm. Info: 441-3931."

Memories

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Performances

PHIL GOLDVARG READS AT JULIANA'S KITCHEN JUNE 18, 2002 [36]

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[38] "Politics of Poetry Sacramento Poetry Center, 17th & K, "Ballet building" Featured readers include Jeanie Keltner, Dorothy Wake, Phil Goldvarg and Straight Out Scribes. Open reading follows." July 24 [2001] "V. S. Chochezi and Staajabu are on the program. Feature presentations will be shared by Phil Goldvarg, (Angelo Antoinne Williams and Guy Ollison, Davis Shugah Shack founding members), Angela Boyce, Rob Lozano, Sean King and others! Ifamadoupue and her band will also perform. All this for only $5? No diggity, no doubt. Don't miss it." March 1 "at the Washington Center 6 p.m. to 11 p.m. 400 16th St. The Scribes will participate in the Chocolate Chunk Funk Festival "The Ballad of Proposition 21." 6 p.m. to 11 p.m. $3 - $10 sliding scale at the door. Also featuring Phil Goldvarg, Mario Ellis Hill, Rob Lozano, Guy Ollison, Yuri Kolsen, Angela Dee Alforque, Angelo Williams, Andrea Ya ya Porras and more! Prop 21 requires adult trial for juveniles 14 or older and allows for children to be given the death penalty. Vote no on prop 21!" Feb. 5

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Sacramento International Poetry Festival 2000 Featured Poets. Poetry Works Poetry, writing, performing arts, and music

"Phil Goldvarg is a poet and artist in Sacramento, CA. He's a member of the Zapatista Solidarity Coalition, Los Escritores del Nuevo Sol and Z-rail poets. He's been published in Ventanan Abierta-Revista Latina, Drum Voices Review, Voz de Zapatistas, Rice & Beans etc. He has been featured in many poetry readings, read poetry in the schools and worked with students and teachers in a search for the magic of poetry."

Links still needs to be revised by importance scale and merged. Yet the links show he has notability you refer. Kasaalan (talk) 15:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Reply on your huge info removal

Hi Kasaalan. After our disagreements over Phil Goldvarg, I gave you some time to get used to Wikipedia, its policies and guidelines, and hoped you'd come in contact with other editors who could explain policies better than I can, as I wasn't getting through to you. It seems you still have not embraced the way Wikipedia works. To clarify:

• Article subjects must meet the notability policy.

Notability guideline, clearly refers notability is not about being famous. I showed in the article that he is a notable local poet that lives, and active in San Francisco.

• References to support notability should be independent and non-trivial, again per the notability policy.
• All references must be reliable sources per the verifiability policy, e.g. not personal websites, blogs etc.

Personal blogs only used very limitedly, and only in accordance with wiki guidelines. Also blogs that I have used are mostly notable local poets/artists/art commentors of San Francisco. So your claim is also false for that matter. For example using the blog of his publisher is totally acceptable according to wiki guidelines.

• Edit warring is unacceptable behaviour. Wikipedia works on consensus and discussion, not reverting others' edits for no reason.

You are deleting a huge info claiming non-notability, trying to begin an edit war yourself with your insistence on deletion of huge part of the content, than accuse me. I clearly stated my reason of your undoing on huge content removal, just like you, so a blatant accusation will not help your case.

• Wikipedia requires working with others and respecting their opinions, even if you disagree with them. Threatening other users is not acceptable.

This case doesn't involve other editors, only you and me reading the page currently. But previous editors Woohookitty and PamD didn't remove the info you remove, or agreed you in any way. You first tried to erase info claiming copyright issues, and now you trying to delete claiming non-notability. When and how I threaten you exactly, don't accuse me blatantly without showing any proof. Threatening other users of course not acceptable, and I didn't threaten you. I respect your opinion, but don't expect me to agree with you just because of that.

• You must assume good faith - other editors are here to improve the encyclopedia too.

Sorry but, as you even wrote yourself, you didn't took any time to improve the article, because you didn't prefer it the first place. Your only edit is limited to removing most of the content out of the article, which is I cannot call as improving.

• Where you have a conflict of interest because you knew an article's subject, you must be careful not to let that interfere with your editing.

If you continue along your path of edit warring, ignoring policies and consensus and making personal attacks, the best case scenario is that there will be an RFC on your behaviour, and the worst is that you will be blocked to prevent further disruption. Please take the time to read the policies and make an effort to work with others. Thanks, Somno (talk) 05:20, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You are even deleting his published book, his public teachings, so what is left actually is not worthwhile keeping anyway. Sorry your edits are weak and disruptive edits. If you took RFC, that would be fine with me, as I previously stated.

Yet you act as since you are the only one to delete a huge part from the article, I have obliged to get act as you wish, and that is not true in any way. Kasaalan (talk) 08:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You expect me to letting you erase the core and most of the article, without a number of 3rd party opinions, since I don't agree with your claims, that won't help getting a consensus. Kasaalan (talk) 08:33, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The most recent revert by Kasaalan

"very bad edit removing everything his published books, or public teachings are not trivia" - for a start, an edit designed to improve the article is, by definition, not a bad edit. I did not remove any of the information about his published books. The article still mentions that he spoke at schools, and now also mentions that he did poetry readings at local coffeehouses, which is more information than before. Also, now the information is sourced to reliable sources. If you have an issue with information that has been removed, then explain it and add that information back in. Reverting an edit without discussion is inappropriate. Somno (talk) 05:27, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes you did. Assuming good faith, maybe you don't know what you were doing. Yet the logs are very clear. Huge Info You Deleted including His Published Books Actually you have edited on his life, and I have missed your edits there, sorry about that misunderstanding on that part. Why I called the edit is weak for it removes too much notable info on Phil Goldvarg in the first place. You deleted his published books, his composed poems, memorial events, and most of all the references. Actually you are the one that removing info without discussion. And you are not doing it per part basis, instead you delete a huge part at a time, and that is why I had to undo you in the first place. Original Page before you remove a huge content is still better than your edit. The info you removed is, clearly his published books, sourced neutrally but his publisher's pages, and 3rd party magazines. Kasaalan (talk) 08:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Yet your other edits and additions of reference is really good and more than welcome, since it improves the content, and clearly I thank you for impoving the article that parts. I still insist the published books, and composed poems should be in the article either in a paragraph or as a bulleted list or the article will be missing crucial info. Kasaalan (talk) 08:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Notability of KeeponCrossing and Perry Vasquez

Some categorized and more non categorized links including museum exhibition flyers magazine and newspaper links, along with university pages, art critic sites.

The project is called Keep on Crossing, as a part of traveling exhibition "TRANSactions: Contemporary Latin American and Latino Art" assembled by Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego. So if you make your searches accordingly you get pretty much notability.

A Keep on Crossin installation is part of TRANSactions: Contemporary Latin American and Latino Art, a traveling exhibition assembled by the Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego. This exhibit will tour the United States in 2007 and 2008.

This page contains works that were inspired by the Keep on Crossing Project. "Keep on Crossing" by Phil Goldvarg [42]

The links are still not categorized, have a look and if you are not satisfied, tell me how much reliable reference for accepting the notability of Perry Vasquez, his Keep on Crossing project which is a part of traveling exhibition "TRANSactions: Contemporary Latin American and Latino Art" assembled by Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego, so I can categorize accordingly. He has lots of exhibitions in various art galleries and museums, especially in local ones. Kasaalan (talk) 16:51, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The "Keep on Crossin'" project might be notable, but I don't see among the references any way in which Goldvarg's song is notable. Notability is not inherited, so even if Keep on Crossin' is notable, it doesn't mean that Goldvarg's poem is. Do you have any references about his poem? (Aside from this primary source.) Regards, Somno (talk) 13:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Notability guidelines clearly refers for separate articles, not content under articles. So your notability argument in false. "Within Wikipedia, notability refers to whether or not a topic merits its own article." In this case, we require verifiability, which it is by primary source.

If you clearly read notability not inherited part in notability guideline, you can easily see, it refers for creating a separate page article for a particular title. Not mentioning an artists' song or poem in his own page, even advocates creating separate titles for an album, song of the artist not affects by notability.

Notability applies to individual topics, not a topic's overarching classification or type. For instance, the notability of a parent topic (of a parent-child "tree") is not inherited by subordinate topics, nor is notability inherited "upwards", from a notable subordinate to its parent. If a topic is notable, there must be verifiable evidence that it independently satisfies the general notability guideline.

Often, a separate article is created for formatting and display purposes; however, this does not imply an "inherited notability" per se, but is often accepted in the context of ease of formatting and navigation.

The notability guidelines determine whether a topic is notable enough to be a separate article in Wikipedia. They do not give guidance on the content of articles, except for lists of people. Instead, various content policies govern article content, with the amount of coverage given to topics within articles decided by its appropriate weight.

A lack of notability does not necessarily mean that reliably-sourced information should be removed from Wikipedia. Consider merging such content to a more appropriate article.

The project, the artist, the museum is notable. Keep on Crossing project by Perry Vasquez, was a part of traveling exhibition "TRANSactions: Contemporary Latin American and Latino Art" assembled by Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego.

Also there is sure a relevance between the project title and the poem, since they are same, and the poem clearly listed under the project page as "influenced by" note. "This page contains works that were inspired by the Keep on Crossing Project. "Keep on Crossing" by Phil Goldvarg [43]" So a clear influence is in place. The poem might even be a part of the project. So you should answer if the project is notable first. I will try clearing the poem project connection with more research. Kasaalan (talk) 10:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It says "Keep on Crossin' has inspired other artists, including musicians and poets." so it is possible Phil Goldvarg is inspired by the project, Perry Vasquez posted the poem in project page, and the 2 musicians composed his poem afterwards. Kasaalan (talk) 10:14, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Also the keep on crossing project is in permanent collection of the museum.

Keep on Crossin’: MCASD Acquires KOC Installation / Keep on Crossin’ Song Posted
The Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego has acquired a Keep on Crossin’ installation for its permanent collection. The whimsical art project, co-created by SOCC members Victor Payan and Perry Vasquez, continues to win new converts to the crossin’ cause. Check out the Keep on Crossin’ website for a recent "Voice of San Diego" article on the project and an mp3 file of the inspiring song "Keep on Crossin’," which was written by talented songwriter Willie Venant after reading the "Keep on Crossin’ Manifesto." http://www.keeponcrossin.com [44]

So the project has wider notability since it permanently exhibited. [45] Kasaalan (talk) 10:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I am familiar with the notability policy. You have not explained why the poem is worth mentioning. The project's website would post absolutely anyone's poem, regardless of author or artistic integrity, simply because it's about their project and it makes them feel important. That does not justify including it in an encyclopedia article. Somno (talk) 10:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, can you please keep your comments short and to the point? It makes communication much easier. Thanks, Somno (talk) 10:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Like the poem is being composed by professional pop reggae musician Willie Vennant mp3 of the song, MySpace Page, album cover, Life Without Music video clip at youtube, Action Sports Retailers Convention in San Diego party featuring Willie Venant on youtube, Classic Rock Festival Returns To OJAI - Proceeds From This Popular Event Benefit The RageJax Foundation June 11, 2006 by PRWeb "Also of interest are two "after- show parties" on Saturday evening featuring ... and a spirited tribute to Bob Marley by Willie Venant", ojaivalleynews.com OJAI Summer festival participation, [46] "Willie Venant blends his Haitian roots with the Reggaedelic sound of Bob Marley", Adams Avenue Street Fair concert participation, Classic Rock Festival III by Ventura County Reporter, [47], [48], [49], banduniverse.com 2005 concert participation. Kasaalan (talk) 12:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Did you listened the song. If you listened the mp3 you can easily understand the song is high quality music by professional musician.

You don't need notability of every song in artist pages, you can easily tell if you are familiar with notability.

You mention every book of a writer, and every album of an artist, even every song time to time, in the article page of the person referred. You don't need seperate notability for every piece alone, if you don't create a separate page for them, verifiability is enough for mentioning the works in artist page. Keep on crossing is a notable project, and a dedicated song for it worths mentioning in the artists page. Kasaalan (talk) 12:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

References