Talk:Philadelphia Club

Pennsylvania Mid‑importance

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Philadelphia Mid‑importance

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Claim to be oldest club

The PC, founded in 1834, claims to be the oldest traditional gentlemen's club in the United States. But so do three other clubs: the Old Colony Club in Plymouth, Massachusetts, founded 1769 [1] (specifically stating it means a club "after the developing London model" [2]), the Schuylkill Fishing Company, founded 1732, and the South River Club in Annapolis, Maryland, founded sometime around 1690. Thus, this factoid is properly introduced in this article as a claim. There's no harm in that. The moniker that Plymouth (town vs. city) or Annapolis choose to give themselves is irrelevant. There are four clubs in the US that each claim for their own various reasons to be the oldest. The edit has been reverted. 67.53.65.66 (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't get saucy with me Bernaise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City#United_States 'For example, in the American state of Massachusetts an article of incorporation approved by the local state legislature distinguishes a city government from a town.'

The Old Colony refers to itself as a Town Club in its own history in several places: http://oldcolonyclub.org/ It is basically a suburban club. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.74.2 (talk) 19:32, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Old Colony Club, the South River Club, the Schuylkill Fishing Company, and the PC all each claim to be the oldest gentlemen's club in the US for different reasons. Let the descriptor be. It's accurate. And the South River is arguably older than the Schuylkill (c.1690/1700 vs 1732), so your descriptor of the "oldest club in the world" is equally inaccurate. The most accurate descriptor is that each of these four clubs claim to be the oldest gentlemen's club in the US. Let it be. 65.28.26.91 (talk) 04:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain ^t/c 18:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Philadelphia Club → Philadelphia Club – It's not usual for Wikipedia articles to use "The" in institutional names, even when "The" is part of the legal name. BMK (talk) 00:38, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

I moved the article to "Philadelphia Club" for the reason given above, that Wikipedia articles about institutions do not generally use "The" in article names, even when "The" is part of the institution's legal name. Another editor reverted, on the grounds of the legal name being "The Philadelphia Club". I believe "Philadelphia Club" is a more appropriate title for the article.

From WP:Article titles (of which WP:COMMONNAME is a part):

Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.
Avoid definite and indefinite articles

Do not place definite or indefinite articles (the, a, and an) at the beginning of titles unless they are part of a proper name (e.g. The Old Man and the Sea) or otherwise change the meaning (e.g. The Crown). They are noise words that needlessly lengthen article titles, and interfere with sorting and searching. For more guidance, see Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name).

Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name). says:

If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the page name. Otherwise, do not.

For example, The Old Man and the Sea includes the article "The" because sentences such as "Ernest Hemingway wrote The Old Man and the Sea in 1951" are written with a capitalized "The".
On the contrary, United States does not include the article "The", because sentences such as "California is part of the United States" are written with a lowercase "the".

Looking at examples of running text usage of "the" in relation to the Philadelphia Club:

The Philadelphia Club, 1834-1934: Being a Brief History of the Club for the First Hundred Years of Its Existence, Together with Its Roll of Officers and Members to 1934 does not use "The Philadelphia Club" in running text, it uses "the Philadelphia Club"
Philadelphia Gentlemen: The Making of a National Upper Class does not use "The Philadelphia Club" in running text, it uses "the Philadelphia Club"
Philadelphia: A 300 Year History does not use "The Philadelphia Club" in running text, it uses "the Philadelphia Club"
Historic Landmarks of Philadelphia does not use "The Philadelphia Club" in running text, it uses "the Philadelphia Club", except when explicitly writing "they organized formally as The Philadelphia Club"
Philadelphia, Guide to the City, in its list of "the principal clubs of Philadelphia", does not list "The Philadelphia Club" or even, "Philadelphia Club, The", but simply "Philadelphia Club"
Puritan Boston and Quaker Philadelphia does not use "The Philadelphia Club" in running text, it uses "the Philadelphia Club"
The Philadelphia Lawyer: A History, 1735-1945 does not use "The Philadelphia Club" in running text, it uses "the Philadelphia Club"

It seems clear that "the" is not commonly used in running text in connection with the Philadelphia Club, therefore by the naming convention quoted above, namely "If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the page name. Otherwise, do not.", "The" should not be part of the article's name, and it should be moved back to "Philadelphia Club". BMK (talk) 06:29, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the list of books above, these were all on the first page of a Google Book search, using the search tern "The Philadelphia Club" (with no quotation marks). I did not skip any books which had examples of running text usage, only those books which did not (mainly the books on the Engineering Club of Philadelphia. So there's no bias in the results. BMK (talk) 06:35, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Google Book search can be duplicated at this link BMK (talk) 06:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Support - as requester. BMK (talk) 00:38, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. No need to use the definite article. Legal or official names are irrelevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The official name is irrelevant. The policy is quite clear on this point, and the specific guideline on definite articles supports the move. The examples given below are valid uses of the definite article in an article title as per the guideline, but this is not. Andrewa (talk) 16:27, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose The legal trademark name is "The Philadelphia Club" like "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post" and "The Wall Street Journal. If a rule is set to truncate all leading "The"s in trademarks, I will abide, otherwise we should use the legal trademarked name. We don't correct grammar or orthography in trademarks which is why we have iPhone. Of course we should always have redirects in place. We wouldn't truncate any of the entries at The Club to "Club". We wouldn't truncate the name of a movie or the name of book, we have The Joy of Sex and The Joy Luck Club. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Our article names follow WP:COMMONNAME, not trademark law, and not the legal names of institutions. Titles are another subject altogether, and not relevant here. BMK (talk) 05:49, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Defrauding and manipulation people

Any information about guys that pretend to be social workers in the city of philadelphia 2600:4040:7A9E:900:F118:1B37:105A:3979 (talk) 03:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]