Talk:Phil Collins/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Verizon Wireless Commercial

In Canada and the States there is a commercial in which one of his songs is used, its one of the more bars commercials and depected is a swimming pool, and a baseball game. Does anyone know that songs name?

Comments

Hey... anyone have all of his production credits? I know he produced Frida's 1982 hit "I know there's something going on" and a few others.

To Hadal: don't revert other people's edits. Someone obviously put a lot of hard work into the second mini-article that was present on this page. It contains information that is as valuable as whatever's in the longer article. Someone should merge the two of them together, but I did not restore the original content so that some bits of information could overshadow some others.

Anyone who cares to read my reply to the anon's harangue above (which he crossposted complete with the text below to my talk page) can do so at User talk:Hadal#Message To Hadal Re: Your Phil Collins Deletion. -- Hadal 05:22, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please, someone with the time and the interest in reading about Phil Collins, merge this information in with the rest of the article:

Phil Collins is a British rock/pop musician, born Philip David Charles Collins on January 30, 1951, in London, England. His show business career began early, as a child actor and model. In 1970, he joined the already successful group, Genesis, as their drummer.

In 1975, when lead singer Peter Gabriel, left the group, Collins took over as vocalist, and took Genesis on to bigger and more commercial endeavors. In 1986, Invisible Touch topped the album charts, and by this time they had several hit singles under their belt to go with the string of successful albums.

In 1981, Collins embarked on a simultaneous solo career, with the album Face Value. In 1985, he was one of the stars of the Live Aid concert, during which he was jetted from Britain to the USA to take part in both parts of the programme. He also took up acting again, taking the lead in the 1988 flop, Buster, in which he played "great" train robber Buster Edwards.

Collins is a successful songwriter, and was asked by Disney to produce the score for the animated film Tarzan in 1999.

Proposition:

As a drummer, I feel that a short section on Phil's unique "face hugger"/heavily processed drum sound would definately be in order for this article... it was really quite revolutionary at the time and has left quite a lasting impression on the drumming/production community. His "gated, phallic concert tom" sound is quite possibly the most recognizable of any recorded drumset sound in rock history. 63.117.4.118 04:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC) Aaron

I agree with this (and I'm not even a drummer). The other day I added a small blurb regarding his "gated drum" style, and I realized that the topic probably warrants a section of its own. As it stands, the topic can be found in paragraph 3 of "solo career", but if someone (preferably a drum guru) would like to add some technical details and make it a new section, I vote yes! Cheers Wikisicky (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposition:

This article should include information concerning Phil Collins' work on Brian Eno's early albums.

Structure

I am adding more content and reorganizing this article. 1) Pre-Genesis 2)Genesis 3)Solo Career

AreJay 17:59, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Intro

I think Phil Collins is most well-known for his singing. Therefore, I think the introductory paragraph(s) should make mention that he is a singer. Seems like an odd oversight. (Craig Buchek, 28 April 2005)

Phil Collins says from himself, that he is a drummer, who sings a little bit. Therefore it seems - at least rhetorically - not to be too wrong, to begin so. (Armin Stephan, 31 May 2005)

It says he is best known as Singer, Drummer, and Solo Artist. I believe this is grammatically incorrect. You can only be best known for one thing, not three. Someone should edit this. I don't know what he is best known for. Willem.

The intro, which should introduce the four topics of the article (Early career, Genesis era, Solo career, and Films), only introduce the first three. Perhaps the intro should finish with a mention of what he has done most recently: his oscar-winning film career. (Patrick, 13 June 2006)

Biography

In the biographies of Phil Collins, especially on his official website, You can read, that he was five years old, when he got his first drums. I corrected this. (Armin Stephan, 31 May 2005)

the album is call "... but seriously" and not "but seriously..." (the dots in the beginning). can't change it since it would break the link and I don't know how to correct that. may be one of you know how to do it.

Tell you what I'll do. I'll see if I can move the article for you. If not I'll get it to redirect. --D-Day 14:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

band members

Is it really necessary to list every musician who has ever played on Phil Collins album in this article? Drumsac 23:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

"After arriving early, Collins was asked to wait for the other drummers to have their turns. Collins listened and spent his time in the family pool learning the pieces before he sat down at the drum kit. By the time he was to audition, he knew all the parts and was quickly hired by the band." I'm not sure what this says. They let him sit by the family pool while listening to others audition? --Gbleem 06:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

According to "Phil Collins: The Definitive Biography" by Ray Coleman, "Phil's punctiliousness in arriving early was to prove an asset. He was asked to wait by the swimming pool while other drummers auditioned ahead of him. This meant he could hear exactly what he would be required to do, for the precise chance. There were four specific tests, checking the player's capacity to learn as well as demonstrating rhythmic ability and a comprehensive knowledge of the drums. The songs were 'The Knife' and 'Stagnation', both from the second album". (Pg. 63, c. 1997, British edition). I'll look into clarifying this in the main article, as it makes it appear he went for a swim before the audition. --Ataricodfish 16:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

According to a PG biography, they seemed to also choose him before he started playing just by the way he sat down at the kit.MrMarmite 09:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Featured Article Candidate

I noted that someone nominated the page for Featured Article Candidate (FAC). While myself and the others who have worked on this page appreciate the compliment, and I'm sure that the page is on its way to being a viable nominee, I agree with the general discussion that the page is not yet ready. For more on the discussion, however minor, check here [[1]].

However, I have reviewed some of the suggestions and have begun work on them. One, the bottom of this page previously felt like a collection of lists. I have compacted this and created two separate articles out of those lists, see Touring and studio musicians of Phil Collins and Phil Collins discography. For the touring musician page, I agreed with one of the earlier comments that I felt it unneccessary to list every musician who ever proformed with Collins in this article. However, a lot of work went into that section by whoever made it, and I didn't want to see it go completely, so I created a new page for this while keeping his current tour listing. For the albums and singles, I put all the information regarding their release and chart performance on the discography page, while keeping the names of the albums on this page.

I also agree that the article is in need of more references before it can become a FAC.

Either way, I hope you don't mind the changes, and hopefully, this article can move toward being a successful FAC someday. Thanks. --Ataricodfish 00:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that the nomination was by a newbie who didn't know the criteria, hence my comment instead of an object. If you source it will become a lot better and it has improved already. I see you have removed the sales figures. Nowadays I'm inclined to remove them from articles as well. They attract a lot of anonymous users constantly changing the figures and none of them seem to be correct. I think you can keep all the people, because it must have been hard work making the list, but maybe they a lot of them shouldn't be wikied, since it's unlikely that an article will be written about them. KittenKlub 18:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Kitten, I agree that it was a newbie nomination most likely and appreciate your comments, and agree with everything. My concern when I saw the nomination was that, most likely, it would hurt a future potential nomination because you can say, "Gee, didn't I just reject that Phil Collins article?" As such, although I eventually wanted to make this a project, the added attention the nomination brought I feel requires additional work on the article. I took the sales figures out while researching discography pages and seeing an argument on Mariah Carey albums discography that eventually locked that page. I eventually want to add RIAA certifications (Gold, Platinum, etc.), which can be verified in the various Billboard books, but I only own their Singles book and will have to find the album book before I can verify referrences. However, you'll see that I made a ton of additions today to the solo and film sections of this main page, including lots of references, so I think the page is on its way. --Ataricodfish 21:14, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Alright, the article has been fixed up a bunch, so I'm going to submit it to Peer Review. Any suggestions for improvement would be appreciated. Thanks. --Ataricodfish 16:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

South PArk

Point of this part of the article is?? Shouldnt this section be featured in the south park article...it takes away from the phil collins article's...aurora...if you will. Nominaladversary 23:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Nominal, thanks for your comments both here and on the peer review page. I agree in regards to the SP information and will remove it (It was added by a SP fan recently by itself under "Appearances in Pop Culture", making it sound like it's the only time Collins ever appeared on television!) I moved it to Films temporarily until I had some views on it from Peer Review as to whether it was appropriate or not. If curious, you can find the SP information here: [[2]]. --Ataricodfish 03:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The section was related to Phil Collin's appearances in pop culture. It's a single point of information that can be expanded upon by people much more knowledgeable about Phil Collins, such as guest appearances on TV shows, references, etc. Given his celebrity status, it's no different than including an "Appearances in Pop Culture" section in a Mr. T article that discuss his presence in Family Guy, the Mr. T Fact Generator, etc. --Scb steve 19:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Scb, I'm not saying that it wasn't well written (it was), or that it doesn't deserve it's own page elsewhere (as it probably should as part of a South Park celebrity target page or something) or that I didn't think those episodes were funny (I saw them both and laughed). The problem is that we're trying to get this page fixed up to featured article status, and an "appearance in pop culture" section wouldn't work because, presumably, Phil Collins job is to appear in pop culture. Should Mr. T, to use your example, also be brought to be a featured article, an "appearance in pop culture" section shouldn't be there either, because a pop culture appearance like being on Family Guy is part of his job as an actor and should be in the rest of the article. To use a more prominent example, George W. Bush doesn't have a pop culture section, although obviously he has influenced his share of tributes, parodies, and television appearances. -- The other problem is, at what point do you *not* put parodies in? South Park and Family Guy are funny today, but might go out of taste in a few years. I remember an obscure issue of Mad Magazine from the 80s making fun of Collins. Every joke about Collins made by Mad Magazine would be inappropriate in this article nor possibly funny anymore, and the kids today don't read Mad like they used to. The problem is, once you start adding a section for every celebrity appearance and joke, you no longer have an article. Imagine if every Paris Hilton parody was put in her article, and you'll see my point as to how it takes away from the main feature of the article. --Ataricodfish 02:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Along the lines of Scb's point, I expanded a section on pop culture references, since the article was missing at least two notable references to Collins: the aforementioned South Park episode, and the famous scene in American Psycho. If the Patrick Bateman quotation seems too long, we can link to the version on Wikiquote. In addition, the article is a little light on the extensive criticism of Collins by music critics. Jokestress 17:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Joke, I deleted the pop culture section. FA's don't normally have a pop culture or trivia section because, especially as an entertainer, it's his job to be in pop culture. As such, this section has been gone from the article for a long time, because at what point, when do you stop putting parodies and tributes in an article? As for Collins' criticism, in the nomination, I actually didn't want to put any criticism or praise in the article, as its all in the eyes of the beholder. I once got in an edit conflict because someone thought there wasn't enough praise of Collins. Another said there wasn't enough criticism. I've tried to keep it neutral, as otherwise, the article becomes "Phil is God" or "Phil sucks", so its best to not have both. --Ataricodfish 17:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Ataricodfish, the references are notable and mentioned in the other articles. In fact, there were tons of articles in the press about the American Psycho soundtrack and disputes with the 80's stars lampooned on it. If not a separate section, they should be mentioned as significant somewhere. Jokestress 18:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Joke, I actually agree with you there. A seperate section (especially with the full quote, which is a copyright violation) whould be too excessive, but I tried working it in before and it didn't seem to work. Although the original article didn't mention American Psycho (it's a common vandal attack to delete this article and replace it with that quote) it did mention the South Park episode. I thought of mentioning it during the part when the article mentions the Oscar win, but it didn't feel right. As I mentioned below, I thought of creating a Phil Collins trivia page, too, for this information, as I've seen it before for other artists, but I thought that might be excessive and unsure if it's within Wiki-rules. So, if you could squeeze in a well written reference in there, I wouldn't be against it. I just didn't want the article to become too slanted to "I love Phil" or "I hate Phil". --Ataricodfish 18:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The SP was obviously a swipe after they lost the Oscar to Collins (so I put it in as a parenthetical comment). I then included info about the AP soundtrack, but I think the reference needs to explain the context better (that the antihero's appreciation is meant to be satiric and black comedy). Jokestress 18:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It was a funny episode, too. I agree that the AP reference needs to be expanded. Perhaps a quote from an article about Phil's reaction? I remember some articles at the time, but I don't know where. Also, I don't think the songs were on the soundtrack CD itself, and only appeared in the movie. I thought of moving it to the film section, as his approval of the song and controversy behind it might work better in that section since it already deals with movie soundtracks. --Ataricodfish 18:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Featured Music Project

Phil Collins has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: None

The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.

• Meets all criteria

Audio: I've added five audio clips, all 30 seconds or less, in .ogg format. The selections range from Collins' first song as lead singer of Genesis through his most recent solo recording. Having reviewed Wiki's policy on fair use and reviewed the Featured Music Project criteria, I believe these samples are appropriate. --Ataricodfish 21:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Pictures: I had previously uploaded pictures from the promo section of Collins' official website, but they were deleted and I was marked with a copyright flag, which obviously I did not intend. I am currently writing to both the official website and the record label to see if I can use the photographs or if they could supply any photographs for use. In the meantime, if anyone else has photographs that they believe are fair use -- perhaps they have taken themselves -- please feel free to upload them into the article.--Ataricodfish 21:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Found that someone previously uploaded a photo from the video for "Against All Odds" and added this. Article, with References added and photo, now reaches 31K and I don't want it to reach overflow state. Should I recieve permission or photographs from official sources, I will update.--Ataricodfish 04:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

References: Applied template for web references to applicable references. Also found and corrected an accidental missing author in the "notes" section. I believe the reference section is complete. --Ataricodfish 03:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is just about ready, having reached 31K today and a significant improvement over the original Featured Article nomination. Article now has plenty of references, audio samples, and has been reviewed for grammar and general flow. I'm going to move this forward for a second attempt as a featured article. --Ataricodfish 04:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks good, but see the FAC page on the image copyrights. Tuf-Kat 05:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Tuf, I added source information and related fair use information to each photograph. There was a Genesis photograph on the page prior to my working on the page with unknown but a definitely copyrighted photograph showing the band's classic lineup. I really liked the image, but it had no information and it's surely copyrighted, so I removed it from this page (It remains on the main Genesis page). I replaced it with an album cover that's equally amusing and considerably easier to reference, although I'm hoping to hear back from the webmaster of the official website regarding the use of promotional photographs. --Ataricodfish 07:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

CafePress

Hey all, just a note that I've been deleting the links that have been added by User:Jamesonking to an affilate link for Phil Collins merchandise. According to Wikipedia is not a soapbox, "External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic. Please note Wikipedia does not endorse any businesses and it does not set up affiliate programs." As such, I don't believe that a link through an affiliate program to Phil Collins' merchandise should be included in order to "Support the Artist!", as the editor put on the page. A link to Collins merchandise already appears on his official website, which is part of the external links. As I doubt Collins needs our help to support his career -- rumor has it he's somewhat rich already -- I don't think the link is needed and will continue to revert it. --Ataricodfish 03:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Prose

Great work and all, and I'm a fan, but really, the prose of this article is not something worthy of the Main Page. I just cleaned up the "Solo Career" section a little. I was dismayed at what I found ... song titles italicized (except for one graf where they were properly in quotes), smart apostrophes, inconsistent use of "#" and "No." to indicate chart position, overuse of nouns where pronouns would do, some morphological clunkers like "reoccurred" and sentences like "Songs like ... indicate a turn to more politically-driven songs."

I also have some confusion over the bit about the fax discovered by the British tabloids. Collins, the article says, "strenuously denied" this. Denied what? That the fax was his? That he wanted to divorce her? (Well, he did, didn't he?) This should be made clearer.

I am strongly tempted to just do a master cleanup on the whole thing, but I'm not sure if I have the time.

Did different people work on different sections? I have seen this in a few too many other successful FAs (Ran, for instance). That's a great way to get the article done, but someone needs to go through the whole thing afterwards and make it look like something you'd expect to get an A on. As it is, it's a B- at best (largely because of the research). Daniel Case 03:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I put 99% of the article together and nominated it for FA, but I haven't touched it much in the last four months since then. So I'll take most of the credit or blame for anything good or bad up until then. Since its successful nomination, I'll admit I haven't done much of anything, so I don't know how its held up since the nomination. Italicized songs and that bit about the fax weren't part of the nomination, but I'll take full credit for some of those morphological clunkers. :) Either way, thanks for reading it, and I appreciate your help. --Ataricodfish 03:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Spoken Article sign

Is it possible (of course) to move the 'spoken article' sign in the upper right corner little bit lower so it doesn't interrupt with text. --193.95.216.228 05:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Wives, kids

We get info about his third wife and his divorce, but no name for first or second wives or indication of who he had kids with. Then we have a transition from him saying he can't leave the UK because of his kids ... to living in Switzerland, which he also won't leave because of kids #2. --Dhartung | Talk 09:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I won't toy with an article that has now been awarded "featured article" status, but it would also have been interesting to note his promise in 1996 to leave the UK for good if Tony Blair and the Labour Party won the election in that year. They did, and he didn't. Legis 14:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I won't toy with an article that has now been awarded "featured article" status, but it would also have been interesting to note his promise in 1996 to leave the UK for good if Tony Blair and the Labour Party won the election in that year. They did, and he didn't.

Given that 1/ the quote was about Kinnock in 1992 and 2/ Collins has stated the quote as completely apochryphal, it would probably be more interesting not to note those things. Ordinary Person (talk) 01:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You should toy with it. One of the best ways to improve an article is to get it featured on the main page - tons of people look at it and make tweaks. While I was recording the spoken word version of this article I noticed and fixed several mistakes. It could really use a once-over for voice, style, tone, etc. Aguerriero (talk) 14:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I very much agree and would appreciate any well written addition to the article (and by the way, I appreciate the voice recording, Aguerriero). There have been additions in the article in the few months since its original nomination, and as I mentioned earlier, I haven't babysat the article too much since writing the article so I don't know if the additions helped or hurt. Any addition creates a new voice, new tone, new perspective, etc. This is both a plus and a minus, since new information also creates unsourced information, errors in how the article reads, or random bits of trivia (I even thought of adding a Phil Collins trivia page to avoid these additions, but thought that might be excessive). I think that's a general weakness with the FA process, as although I'm exceptionally happy with the final outcome of the article, the article will obviously change as new editors contribute. That's the whole Catch-22, I suppose -- featured articles need new contributions to remain informative and timely, but new contributions also weaken the process if someone's not there to edit. --Ataricodfish 14:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparantly he divorced one of his wives via fax, certainly worth mentioning if it can be verified? Adamshappy 20:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Adams, I agree, as I remember hearing the same several years ago, and allegedly it was a big deal in the British tabloids. I couldn't find anything definitive one way or the other (tabloids aren't great sources), so I just passed over it in my writing. There was a brief mention of it this in the article this morning, but it was unsourced and the sentence was confusing, making it sound like he denied the divorce but offering no reference to this. --Ataricodfish 20:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Eight years ago, Phil Collins, 51, split from his wife, Jill Tavelman, with a fax that wound up on the front page of all the British tabloids."

Aidin Vaziri (January 12, 2003). Phil Collins: Singer takes new wife, new country, new life. San Francisco Chronicle

Jokestress 20:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

My only concern is that whether anything written in regards to the fax is written in good taste, meaning that it was something vital to his career or life and not simply trivia or a "let's make fun of Phil" comment. If it's mentioned, it should flow smoothly with the article and not be biased. Otherwise, no objections here, although personally, I feel it's more trivia than info. --Ataricodfish 20:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

(outdenting) Biographies typically have a section on personal life (marriages, kids, etc.). Hardly trivia, and this could go there. I don't have the inclination myself to catalogue his wives and kids, but it seems worth adding, and this was a big deal when it happened. Jokestress 21:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Done, simulpost. ;-) When one of his biggest hits is about his own divorce, the information should be there ... and mention of the third wife without the first and second just invites the question. Finally, the fax story seems credible in that one was published and he talks about it. Of all the scurrilous things in biographies on Wikipedia, that's mild. --Dhartung | Talk 21:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I was referring more to the fax as trivia than their marriage. And thanks for the addition, Dhartung. I don't have much interest in his private life, and focused instead on his musical career. If more information on his personal biography comes from being featured, all the merrier. --Ataricodfish 22:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Just a quick thank you to anyone who watched over the page, editted vandal attacks, and made any helpful additions during the last 24 hours while Phil was the Featured Article. I appreciate the help. --Ataricodfish 00:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for babysitting it, and very nice work on researching and writing it! Jokestress 01:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Oasis Fued

His fued with Oasis members Liam and Noel should have a mention it's a major part of what comes to mind when thinking of Phil.

We cannot define Phil Collins or his career based on who he has or hasn't feuded with. That list would run too long and be quite pointless. He's been a musician for over 30 years so it's safe to say that he's had the occasional problem with musicians and music critics. This is apart from the fact that Liam and Noel seem to have had problems with just about anyone associated with music from George Harrison to Kylie Minogue. AreJay 03:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it should be included. Noel Gallagher has mouthed off about every British musician who has generally had a much more successful career than him. Loads of others have talked about Phil in this way. I don't think it's a major part when thinking about Phil at all. In fact most people outside the British Isles havent even heard of Oasis. Snowbound 22:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Oasis are hardly cutting edge themselves. Any band that peaks on its first two albums and yet drags on for another decade and more, with increasingly dire material, are little better than a cabaret act - the Gallaghers should get over themselves. Collins may be bland, but at least he's an adult. Guv2006 18:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

DANA TYLER

There has been no solid proof that she and Phil are anything other than friends. I think we should change this. Snowbound 04:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC) This isn't the tabloids. It doesn't need to be here.Sposato (talk) 02:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Edits

I made some changes today in the format of the article, which I just wanted to explain quickly.

1) I deleted this unsourced information, which I could not locate online and could be a possible hoax, "Perhaps all these roles had some part to play in his most recent project, but the most notable contribution has to be by Paul Merton on the television programme Room 101. Collins' entertaining performance on the 19th July 2006 episode of this long running programme has led to a contract with the BBC to present and host his very own television show. Although this is only in early development at the moment, it has been widely rumoured that this new television programme will be given the slightly cheesy but nonetheless apt name, "S-S-Studio"."

2) I combined "Films" and "Theater" sections, because the Theater section is currently only two lines. As the theater section expands, I think it will warrent another section.

3) In regards to Dana Tyler, I agree with the above that without sources and just vague references to tabloids, I deleted this information from the Personal section. Also, I deleted the external link to her official biography, as that belongs on a page about Dana Tyler, not on Collins' page.

--Ataricodfish 13:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Award information

Hey all,

I think that it's great that anon user User:84.184.110.247 added all the award and nomination information. However, it gives this article something of a list feel, something which we've attempted to avoid since it receiving FA status. For other musicians, the awards are often put on a new page (See Madonna's achievements and awards and List of Mariah Carey awards). As such, I'm going to move the award information to a seperate page and add the links to the template, see also, and categories. I'm going to call the page List of Phil Collins's Awards, which someone could rename if so need be.

--Ataricodfish 18:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Collins

As others have pointed out, this article is a little light on the extensive criticism of Collins by music critics. I'm not sure where to put the following (to preserve flow), but I think the following paragraph sums it up:

Collins has become, more than most musicians of his stature, a frequent target of musical criticism. For example, the book The Worst Rock-And-Roll Records of All Time: A Fan's Guide to the Stuff You Love to Hate lists Phil Collins as one of the four worst pop artists and Metacritic's roundup of album reviews found Testify to be the worst-reviewed album by the time of its release, though it has since been "surpassed" by Bloodhound Gang's Hefty Fine and Limp Bizkit's Results May Vary [3]. Collins' shift from experimental to middle of the road pop music, both in Genesis and in his solo career, may explain some of this critical ire. Rod Stewart and Paul McCartney experienced similar backlashes with the progress of their careers.

Of course, the cites would be cleaned up if posted in the main article. By the way, the Rod Stewart article has some info on his critical response, including Rolling Stone's infamous quote, "Rarely has a singer had as full and unique a talent as Rod Stewart; rarely has anyone betrayed his talent so completely." So criticism need not be shied away from. Calbaer 20:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the fact that there is criticism over the direction Phil Collins' music took (which is apparently what your excerpt alludes to) has been covered multiple times in the article (see the section on No Jacket Required and ...Both Sides). The Rolling Stones criticism of Collins' work is well known and also documented in the article. As for the book The Worst Rock-And-Roll Records of All Time: A Fan's Guide to the Stuff You Love to Hate, that source would fail WP:RS. I could write a book tomorrow and rank the people that I consider to be the worst rock artists of all time, but that is entirely my opinion and I don't expect encyclopedias to use it as a source to define how horrible or otherwise those musicians are. And in any case, what does "four worst pop artists" even mean? Worst in what respect? Mainstream media has been hating on Phil Collins just because its fasionable to hate on him. I don't think any of that adds value to the article in any way. AreJay 21:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it? If the popular or critical reputation of an artist is as someone who puts out a poor album or poor albums, isn't an article omitting this incomplete? As far as the book goes, it's only the authors' opinions, but it's the only book I know of whose sole purpose is ranking the worst songs and artists, and it was quite popular. And what's wrong with the Metacritic observation? Anyway, no need to be defensive; I've got lots of Collins and Genesis albums to my name, so I'm not coming at this with an anti-Collins agenda, only one of balance. If the Collins-loving Rolling Stone quote "Genesis has managed to turn the possible catastrophe of Gabriel's departure into their first broad-based American success," is used, why nothing negative? Or did others try to add balance and only to find their contributions swiftly reverted? Calbaer 22:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't actually being defensive — I'm a much bigger Genesis fan than I am a Phil Collins fan and when I rewrote the Genesis article and put it up for WP:FAC earlier this year, I included a section that dealt exclusively with criticism of the band. I may not agree with some of the criticism, but I can see where they were coming from. With Phil Collins, there appears to be three aspects to the criticism:

* One, there's a perception that Phil Collins turned Genesis into a mainstream music machine after Gabriel left and abondoned the group's prog rock fan base. While I don't agree with the criticism, I can see how fans and critics' perceptions grew and that's why this as a criticism of Collins has been included in the article.

* Two, that a good majority of his solo albums are bland poppy-rock music. I agree with this criticism (while some others may not) and I think I can see where people are coming from with the criticism. Although, not one Phil Collins solo album has ever been progressive, so I find the argument that you put forth that that was a "shift" in his musical direction from progressive rock to pop in his solo career hard to swallow. However, this has also been incorporated into the article in multiple places.

* Three, there's criticism out there for no reason other than the fact it is fashionable to pick on Phil Collins. I have a problem with this, because people write articles and books and throw in snide comments about him because it sounds cool. I don't take such criticism seriously and I can't see where they are coming from. The other day, I was reading a book about Live Aid and they were talking about artists that supported the cause and it said something like..."Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, Queen, Eric Clapton and err...Phil Collins". This seems to be in line with the book that has him down as the four worst pop artists. I have a real problem with that and I object strongly that there seems to be an effort to incorporate criticism stemming from people that just like to hate on him just because it sounds so cool. Now, having said that, I haven't read or even heard of the book, and I'm not sure if it was meant to be satirical.

* Also, contrary to what you assert, the Rolling Stone has never been either Collins friendly or Genesis friendly, they just love to take swings at both Collins and Genesis every opportunity they get. Now, as far as the Rolling Stone quote ""Genesis has managed to turn the possible catastrophe of Gabriel's departure into their first broad-based American success"...that quote is perfectly okay because it is rooted in fact. Genesis' first album post Gabriel outsold all previous Genesis albums, not only in the UK but also in the States. I don't think that was the quote was included to show Collins or Genesis in positive light; it simply is a fact that the first Collins-Genesis album outsold every other Gabriel-Genesis album. AreJay 13:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it's become fashionable to pick on Collins, there are reasons behind it. I'm just saying that it might be appropriate to gather these reasons into one short paragraph. Michael Jackson tones down the critically negative, whereas Rod Stewart has a sizeable portion on his negative criticism; I'm not sure which approach would be better, though obviously I lean toward the Rod Stewart approach. The book, by the way, wasn't satirical. It picked the "worst" based on stature, impact, and perceived decline in quality, as I recall. I forget the exact arguments, but, at the time, Collins was my favorite artist, and it seemed a bit unfair. But unfair isn't unnotable, and I believe the book reflected much of the popular and critical opinion of the time. Calbaer 19:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure there are reasons for it — those reasons have been documented in the article already. If all you're wanting to do is consolidate the criticism under one sub-heading, go for it. I think it's a good idea and it probably adds structure to the article too. As far as Michael Jackson and Rod Stewart, neither one of those two articles are featured so I'm a little hesitant in drawing inspiration from either one of them. But, by all means, if your intention is to consolidate Phil Collins' criticism into one section, go for it. I continue to voice my objection on the book that you quote from though — The Worst Rock-And-Roll Records of All Time: A Fan's Guide to the Stuff You Love to Hate the very title seems to reek of sensationalism and I hardly think this is encyclopedic. I don't think citing it adds value to the article in any way. AreJay 19:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Phil Collins

Hello- On which album is Phil Collins' song "True Colours"?

It's on the Hits-Album. This is just a compilation, but it's the only album, where "True Colours" is

Music Foundation

I came across Joni Fuller which claims that she is a member of "Phil Collins’ "Music Foundation". However, this article has nothing on it. Does anyone know anything about it. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Noel Gallagher

Hey all,

I decided to be bold and remove the random section, with its own subheading and everything, recently added about Collins' relationship with Oasis member Noel Gallagher. As has been discussed on this Talk page previously, this feud is relatively minor and unencyclopedic, and I personally don't see a need to have a section and ignore, say, his relationship with Madonna or Sting or Cookie Monster or any other individual.

I'll go back into hiding now.

--Ataricodfish 06:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Right. I don't think there's anything in the feud with Noel Gallagher that would warrant an entire section in the article dedicated to it. Noel Gallagher is at best ignorant, talentless and crass and I don't think anybody cares or wants to hear of his opinion on anything. AreJay 14:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish. look at the quote above : - "Noel Gallagher is at best ignorant, talentless and crass and I don't think anybody cares or wants to hear of his opinion on anything.". I have no love for Gallgher either, but to paraphrase Chandler Bing, Could you BE any more subjective? As for the difference between this and 'his' relationship with Madonna or Sting or Cookie Monster or any other individual, this 'feud' was the subject of a great deal of newspaper articles at the time, is indicative of Collins being viewed generally as talentless and his undoubtedly restrained response, is mentioned prominently on the Noel Gallagher wiki page, and such it warrants inclusion.

I suspect the reason you disagree (I'm talking to AreJay here) has more to do with your obvious lack of objectivity that any other reason. I've put the section back in. If you disagree, I have no problem - but come up with a better reason than what amounts to 'I don't like Noel Gallagher so I'm removing this section because he says nasty things about my hero Phil Collins'. That is all. Mikejstevenson 13:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Mike, I can not speak for AreJay, but I will explain why I did and will remove the Noel Gallagher section from this article. Note that I mean no disrespect.

About a year ago, I helped one of the author's of one of the Gallagher pages with some editing suggestions (I can't remember which Gallagher brother I assisted on -- it was a while ago). The Gallagher brothers commonly get into arguments with just about any singer, performer, etc., and there would be tons of articles with Gallagher sections (i.e., Robbie Williams, The Backstreet Boys, Kylie Minouge (sp?), etc.). As well, as this is an encyclopedia article on Collins, any "argument" between the two is rather minor for encyclopedic purposes, if at all.

My point with relationships to other artists is that Collins did not just have arguments or praise in relation to Gallagher. Collins is hugely influential for reasons I don't even understand in the rap community, and there are a number of rap artists who have praised him. On the other hand, I have also heard Led Zeppelin fans blame Collins for destroying the group's chance for a reunion (yep -- because Collins was the drummer for Zeppelin during the 1985 reunion Live Aid concert, and Zeppelin refuses to release their portion of the concert to this day because they say it was of poor quality). So we could continue to indefinitely expand this article if we were to place sections for his relationship with each artist. Adding a section for his relation with one artist creates a slippery slope -- should N*Sync fans add sections for their recording sessions for Tarzan? Should Zepplin fans fill the article with quotes from the group stating the Live Aid concert was horrible? And so on.

The section you added was rather large and, for a Collins article, unencylopedic. If it appears in the Gallagher article as you mention, that was a decision by the editors of that page, as for whatever reason, they feel Gallagher's argument with Collins was vital to Gallagher's career. I personally disagree that Collins had any effect on Gallagher's career, and wouldn't add more than a small blurb, if that. The same really can't be said in reverse, as Gallagher had no effect on Collins career.

All the best,

--Ataricodfish 17:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

My comments above were more an addendum to Ataricodfish's reasoning as to why that section did not belong in the article and not the sole reasoning behind why that section needed to be removed from the article. How much coverage Noel Gallagher's fued got in the Noel Gallagher article is of no relevence in the Phil Collins article. The Phil Collins article is currently a Featured Article, while the Noel Gallagher article isn't even close to being one. I am therefore hesitant to draw inspiration from that article. How does Noel Gallegher's sole comments lead you to generalize that Phil Collins is generally viewed as being talentless?? Especially given Noel Gallagher's history of feuds with anyone and everyone he ever met? Bottomline, you can paraphrase Chandler Bing all you want, but this is an encyclopedia and the content of the section you included was unencyclopedic. I would suggest that the coverage that you claim Noel Gallagher's diatribe on Collins got was more in the spirit of "here's Noel Gallagher at it again" than anything remotely close to "Noel Gallagher just exposed Phil Collins to be utterly talentless". AreJay 02:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

What's interesting is that you've completely removed the section talking about him leaving the country after the election as well - which was already there. Looks like I gave you an excuse, right?. I wonder how long it will be before the comment about his poor sales post 1990 will be gone as well? But fine I give up. Do whatever you want. You most likely have a lot more time on your hands than I do. 86.129.134.49 13:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, I am not that fussed about you deleting my section. But what I find absolutely appalling is that you have used this as an excuse to delete an already existing section just because it reflects badly on Collins. That is not just unencylopedic; it's revisionist, it's subjective, and more importantly it's suppressing information because it doesn't meet with your approval. Absolutely disgusting. Mikejstevenson 15:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

What are you even talking about? I haven't added or deleted anything from the Phil Collins article in ever so long. Sections sometimes get deleted inadvertantly, I think you need to calm down, assume good faith and reinsert the deleted section if you think it should not have been deleted. Running around accusing people of being subjective doesn't solve any problem. AreJay 16:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. If you want to say that Phil Collins threatening to leave the country if Labour wins the 1992 election (and the subsequent reaction by his peers) is unencylopedic than there's no point in arguing with you. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a key political statement made by him that pissed a lot of people off - primarily because it allied him (at least in terms of public perception) with the Tory party. But that is 'unencylopedic' apparently. Presumably any event in Collins life that reflected badly on him would be unencylopedic? If someone had added a section about Collins experimentation with hair restoration products I would agree - it's irrelevant. But a extremely controversial political statement made by him, on the eve of an election, and reaction to it from other musicians? Anyway, do whatever you want. My interest in this subject (negligible to begin with) has reached a new low. So lets leave it there. Mikejstevenson 19:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Umm, again, that's fiction, not fact [4]. Phil Collins never made that statement, Noel Gallagher thinks he did, despite Phil stating catagorically that he didn't. And anyway, I've invited you to add anything (including criticism of Phil Collins) to the article that can be backed up by facts and with appropriate citations, but apparently you want none of that. You can't just write any old rubbish and expect people to not do anything about it. To quote from Wikipedia's edit pages, "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable". I think its ironic that you keep reappearing on this talk page every 20 seconds to reaffirm your disinterest in Phil Collins and in this article. AreJay 20:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

No AreJay - you've misunderstood. I keep re-appearing here to affirm my complete lack of respect for your editing style. You know perfectly well that Collins was directly quoted by the Sun newspaper in April 1992, and the fact that I cannot be bothered to find a citation (chiefly because I know you would only delete it 10 seconds later) is not evidence that the discussion never happened. I am perfectly aware of the need for citations. Perhaps you are aware of the use of this keyword - ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› . Some people use that to indicate that a) they feel a citation of some sort is required, but also b) to indicate to the reader that it is 'unproven'. My distaste has more to do with my suspicion that if the section in question had been somewhat more complimentary it would have remained. Lets look at your previous quote - "Noel Gallagher is at best ignorant, talentless and crass and I don't think anybody cares or wants to hear of his opinion on anything." This alone indicates that you are completely unable to be objective. Ataricodfish supplies well thought out and considered reasoning to support his decision. You, on the other hand, do not. You seem to think that you are somehow 'above' such requirements. Your credibility is nil. 86.129.138.230 01:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, this is plain ridiculous. You're back to affirm your lack of respect for my editing style?? And just what are you saying I've edited? My last edit to this article was on 12/4 and the edit was completely unrelated to whatever it is that you keep harping on about. No, I don't know "perfectly well" that Collins was directly quoted by the Sun newspaper in April 1992, and if "you can't be bothered" to find an approriate citation, you shouldn't post content to the article or be up in arms when people remove uncited material. And you think that I believe that I am "above such requirements"?? Look in the mirror. As a matter of fact, if you spend half as much time adding appropriate citations to your additions to the article as you do in engaging in this pointless fracas with me, this article might actually benefit and improve in quality. This is all a moot point though because you're main aim appears to go on and on about my Noel Gallagher comment, despite the fact that I've repeatedly said that I was merely attesting to Ataricodfish's edits of the section and the fact that I myself did not make the edit. Thank you, but I didn't ask anyone, least of all you, to evaluate my credibility. My record here on Wikipedia speaks for itself. Your only record consists entirely of this senseless battle that you insist on prolonging for reasons known only to you. If you really want to improve the quality of this article, I invite you again to add your content, this time with appropriate citations. If all you want to do is prolong this verbal duel, please talk to the hand. I can see no benefit in this since this is a complete and utter waste of my time. I'm out. AreJay 02:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned Collins's comment on the eve of the 1992 election in the main article. I have looked at it today and it has been removed. Can the person who decided to delete it please stand up? I am very annoyed that someone thought it right to do this - my assessment of what happened was fair and balanced 18:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone please remove the current text and replace it with the original article about Phil Collins

Spoken Article

Isn't the 'W' unpronounced in 'Chiswick'?--Jickyincognito 15:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Almost all British placenames tend to have their endings glossed over. "-wick", "-wich" etc. usually have a silent "w", i.e. Norwich. The same goes for other endings like "-ham" (Fulham, Sandringham, Birmingham) and "-bury", i.e. Didsbury (didz-bree not didz-bare-ee). It sounds a little bad when people get it wrong, I suppose like pronouncing Mobile as moe-bile or something. Cameronlad 11:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Meandering solo-artist section

The section detailing Phil's career as a solo artist is quite meandering in parts, and really needs to be tightened-up. It reads more like a book for fans than an encyclopedia article. Mruss 17:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

phil collins vs the ultimate warrior

I was thinking there should be a reference that he was in a skit wrestling the Ultimate Warrior, I'm sure someone around knows more about this than me and could include it. Nudas veritas 05:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This was part of a promo he cut for either No Jacket Required or But Seriously.... The promo had him inteacting with many celebrities including Bruce Willis, John Travolta and the Ultimate Warrior. I wouldn't include it, since I don't think it is notable. Thanks AreJay 13:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Spelling error?

In the section named Solo Career the last lines of the second paragraph read as "The result was the "gated reverb" sound which Collins invented, which the assistance of studio engineer, Hugh Padgham." Is something missing in this sentence, should it be "with the assistance..." or is it correct?--Henry Berthelsen 14:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Should have been "with the assistance". I've corrected it now. Thanks AreJay 14:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Switzerland

It says that it's to be near his children, but I and a lot of people I know thought it was because he doesn't get taxed as much in Switzerland as he does in the UK Speedboy Salesman 17:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The "gated drum" sound (3rd paragraph of "Solo Career")

This article had incorrectly attributed the invention of the "gated drum" sound to Phil Collins. True, Phil was playing drums at the time and he certainly was the one who made the sound famous, but it was engineer Hugh Padgham who was responsible for conceiving and engineering the actual sound. I made a minor correction to reflect this. Cheers. Wikisicky (talk) 14:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

notes

for the citation portion, might want to use WP:CITE. miranda 01:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Collins as a drummer

The article focuses too much on Collin's singing and less on his drumming. There should be at least a section on his innovating drumming (as a left hand drummer) and his session/guest appearances as a drummer in 50+ albums (Peter Gabriel, Eric Clapton, Tommy Bolin, Steve Hackett, Paul McCartney, Brian Eno, Robert Plant, Tina Turner, Mike Oldfield...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.5.241.167 (talk) 01:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Hearing loss

This is talking more as a big fan than a wiki editor, but is he still losing his hearing, or was it just a one off thing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.72.9 (talk) 08:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Philcollinsvcs.PNG

Image:Philcollinsvcs.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Phil Collins home page

I tried visiting the web address given for Phil Collins' web page in the article, but recieved no response other than a "Page not found" error message. If this doesn't change, maybe the link should be removed or have a 'Defunct' label next to it.

I tried accessing PC's home page on the 20th of April, 2008.

Long long way to go

Alguien sabe que fue lo que motivó a Phil Collins a escribir el tema "Long long way to go"?

Does someone knows the reason that motivated Phil Collins to wrote the song "Long long way to go" in 1985? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.106.71.139 (talk) 23:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)