Talk:Petrushka chord

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Original research?

Many books describe the Petrushka chord as being simultaneous.
Pogue, David (1997). Classical Music for Dummies, p.80. ISBN 0764550098: "Stravinsky delibaretly wrote two simultaneous harmonies that clashed horribly with each other...This clash, however, has a purpose: It represents a musical nose-thumbing on the part of the puppet." NOTE: This source gives the lower F# major chord in first inversion.
As far as I know the octatonic derivation is not proven. I believe he used the scale in later music, not earlier music.
A voicing is given along with an image which is not taken from the music. Did Stravinsky use this voicing exclusively in Petrushka?
The article says the chord is used "constantly throughout the ballet Petrushka to herald the arrival of the protagonist onstage" yet
"[Stravinsky] later wrote that he had devised the juxtaposition of triads in C major and F sharp major that permeates the score as a means of representing Petruskha's insults to the audience at the Shrovetide fair". Libbey, Ted (1999). The NPR Guide to Building a Classical CD Collection: The 350 Essential Works, p.185. ISBN 0761104879.
I am unsure how two unison clarinets could play the two arpeggios.

Hyacinth 10:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call it 'original research' per se, because most of the content was extracted from past related articles, notes from a class on contemporary music, and the textbook. I did goof on including bibliography, and I'll work on that.

I'm going to argue on Point 2, but I will investigate it further.
Regarding Point 3, I state repeatedly that the image and voicing are meant as abstractions of the concept instead of snippets from the score. Though this is partially due to the desire to simplify to its most basic components, it's also a fear of possibly violating copyright if I used a Stravinsky score.
The line cited in Point 4 was extracted from the article on Petrushka, so that was not my error. You are welcome to change it.
Point 5 was just dumbness on my part. I was looking for a word and used a completely inappropriate one instead.

Until Wikipedia can start paying me salary, I have more pressing work to complete. :) I will make an effort soon. Spamguy 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up

The Petrouchka Chord, in all any aspect is always an F# Major chord over a C Major chord. While Stravinsky stuck to the voicing shown in the example on the page almost entirely throughout Petrouchka, he also varied it in a few senses.

In the second part, Rehearsal number 99 if you have the score, and when the piano plays the solo 32nd notes, the piano is alternating an F# Major chord and a G Major chord in the first beat, and then and then an F# major chord and a C Major chord. In the third bar of rehearsal 99, the piano begins 10 32nd notes per beat, and alternates the follwing notes: F#-A#-D-G-G-C#-D#-C-F-B. You can't really classify this section in chords; it is much easier to classify it as two scales, a tritone apart, sounding simultaneously. Thus, I agree with point one to an extent. These scales sound together simultaneously, yet they are played in different inversions in many different occasions. So to say that the Petrouchka chord is a C Major chord on top of an F# Major chord in first inversion is false.

I do disagree with the writer on point two. As far as I know there is no evidence that Stravinsky decided on these particular chord because they form nearly an entire octatonic scale, and if the writer of this article cannot provide evidence for that claim, it should be removed. It is my opinion that Stravinsky used C Major and F# Major simply because they were a tritone apart. However, I would not enter that either because I have no evidence that that is the reason.

As far as point three goes, this is heard frequently throughout the ballet, and is most frequently quoted when discussing the Petrouchka chord because it explains the function of the chords quiet nicely. It is seen in the music between two clarinets at rehearsal 95, "Doppio valore", between the clarinets again at rehearsal 118, and between the trumpets at the very end of the ballet, two measures before rehearsal 267. I would side with the writer of this article on point three.

Point four has been resolved and point five is simply a mix up of words.

As opposed to coming onto the talk page and attempting to embarrass the writer of the article with these points, and pointing out obvious mistakes he made, why don't you just be bold and fix them? As opposed to this stuff, you could have mentioned in the article that this chord has been used many, many times in modern music, namely as the final chord to "West Side Story", a C major chord in all of the upper voices with the basses playing an F#, implying this chord. I am removing the original research tag since what the writer has written is an accurate description of the Petrouchak chord. Kntrabssi 18:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you come on this page and point out that I may be mistaken to have gone on this page and point out another's mistakes? The article still has problems. For instance, the chord is defined as bitonal while many theorists believe bitonality an impossibility. Hyacinth (talk) 18:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Mikrokosmos 70 the right hand is in F# major and the left hand is in D minor. It is not hard to play, so if many theorists say it is impossible to play in two keys at the same time they are wrong. If many theorists say you can not hear two keys at the same time that does not mean bitonality is impossible. Bitonality does not mean hearing two keys at the same time, it means playing two keys at the same time. If you can not hear what all the parts in a fugue are playing at the same time, that does not mean a fugue is impossible. Fugue is the name for what you play, even if some people can not hear everything all at once. Teenly (talk) 00:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very dissonant???

This chord is only mildly dissonant, depending on what one's ear is used to. For example, BΔ7 over C major (do-sol-mi-li-ti-ri-fi or do-sol-mi-la#-si-re#-fa#) is much more dissonant, yet it can function as a tonic substitution (finishing a cadence) under the right circumstances. The neutrality of this approach is greatly disputed. 87.69.130.159 (talk) 23:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that it is very dissonant and associated with specific emotions was already disputed by the citation needed tag.

What approach is it that you dispute? Find a source that describes it as mildly dissonant and your approach, whatever that may be, will be secure. Hyacinth (talk) 02:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are many approaches out there, hence citing one or two critics won't do as far as defining a "very dissonant" chord. For me, Schönberg is a pretty good example... 87.69.130.159 (talk) 20:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lydian dominant

C D♭ E F♯ G B♭ it may also be categorized as lydian♭7♭9 omit 13.

Is the above a scale or chord or something else? Hyacinth (talk) 09:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

C D♭ E F♯ G B♭ is a hexatonic scale, but the lydian dominant isn't a hexatonic scale. Hyacinth (talk) 10:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The lydian dominant by itself is not hexatonic. However, in jazz notation you may alter any scale to any degree to fit your musical needs. Therefore, a hexatonic scale can be formed using at least three methods:

Combining two triads/arpeggios that do not share the same notes (or, for example, two seventh chords/arpeggios that share two notes, such as Aø7 and D7 for the eponymous progression and also for its resolution chord, which is commonly G minor);
Omitting a note from a seven-note scale.
Adding a note to a pentatonic scale (the blues scale is a good example).

There are also certain steps to defining a seven-note scale, before you turn it to either hexatonic, octatonic, pentatonic etc. You first begin with defining the quality by its third (or the absence thereof, in which case you look for the suspension note). The possibilities are major and minor. After you have established the quality, you define the mode by finding the defining interval (first out of the seven possibilities the major scale-derived modes have to offer, then harmonic and melodic minor-derived and only afterwards resorting to other options, which I will not discuss right now). Since the tritone defines the lydian scale, the scale is deemed lydian and not mixolydian, which is defined by the combination of the lowered 7th and the perfect 4th. After that, the chord tone alterations are listed: in this case it is solely the ♭7; this is followed by listing the altered tension(s), which is ♭9. Finally, you omit the 13. And... voila! There is the desired scale: lydian♭7♭9 omit 13, just like my edit says.

By the way, you might want to familiarize yourself with the term "chord scales" to avoid these types of misunderstandings in the future. 87.69.130.159 (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A seven note scale does not have a 9th or a thirteen.

For someone apparently so comfortable with this theory your objection to the idea that the Petrushka chord makes up most of the octatonic scale seems strange. Do you have a source for these theories?

This misunderstanding may also have been avoided if you had answered my question as to what "lydian♭7♭9 omit 13" is, which apparently is a chord scale. Hyacinth (talk) 00:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The term "chord scale" merely points at the interchangeability between the terms "chord" and "scale". It is mostly used to derive melodic patterns over chords. Also, the jazz approach counts the scale notes in thirds and not in seconds, dividing it into two categories: chord tones (1, 3, 5 and 7) and tensions (9, 11 and 13).

In a nutshell: this is the name of a scale. The full chord name would be, for instance: C7♭9♯11 no 13. A minor seventh is written as 7 and a major seventh is written as maj7 or Δ7. Tensions are optional notes, therefore you specify to the player not to play a 13th in a chord as opposed to omitting it from a scale.

Unfortunately, I do not have any books anymore, but feel free to check out Berklee press and other jazz theory reading material.

As for my apparent objection... I already told you I have no problem returning it into the article. My only problem was that it ruled out other possibilities... not that there are that many anyway. 87.69.130.159 (talk) 06:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removed a chunk of 'other uses'

" Leonard Bernstein ends the popular musical West Side Story with a C major chord in the upper voices, and gives the basses an F♯, which could be seen to imply the Petrushka chord.^{[citation needed]} This is wrong however; it is an example of the tritone that features heavily in Bernstein's score, ending with the tritone to leave the dissonance creating an eerie feeling. The same treatment can be found in the opening sequence and finale of Stephen Schwartz's musical "Wicked."^{[citation needed]}

John Williams uses it in various parts of his score for the Star Wars Trilogy, an example being the frequent use of major triads in the brass in chromatic intervals of a minor third (two minor thirds forming a tritone) such as G major and D♭ major^{[citation needed]}. "

I have removed the above text from "Other uses" as neither refers to the Petrushka chord and neither is cited. Anyone wants to put it back, be my guest. 86.160.8.241 (talk) 15:39, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Abstract notation

Where is the (0 4 7) notation from? I've used it myself and am quite surprised to see it on Wikipedia. Tomgg (talk) 08:54, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]