Talk:Peter Stuyvesant/Archive 1

Archive 1

Early unlabelled comments

Gehring, Charles T. “New Netherland- Translating New York’s Dutch Past.” Humanities Nov./Dec. 1993: p27-31. SIRS Government Reporter.was gay and fucking stupid SIRS Mandarin, Inc. Newark High School Library, Newark, DE. 17 Nov. 2004. <http://sks.sirs.com>.

Goodwin, Maud W. Dutch and English on the Hudson. New York: United States Publishers Association, Inc, 1919.

Kennedy, Cohen, and Thomas A. Bailey. The American Pagent. 12th ed. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2002.

“Peter Stuyvesant.” DISCovering U.S. History. 2003. The Gale Group. Newark High School Library, Newark, DE. 17 Nov. 2004. <http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/SRC>.

Shenitz, Bruce. “New York’s Beginnings, Real and Imagined.” New York Times 3 Dec. 1999: pE.2:35. Proquest Newspapers. Proquest Company. Personal computer, Newark DE. 17 Nov. 2004. <http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb>.

Shepard, Richard F. “The High Noon of Peter Stuyvesant.” New York Times 19 Oct. 1907: p14.3. Proquest Newspapers. Proquest Company. Personal computer, Newark, DE. 17 Nov. 2004. <http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb>.

Shorto, Russell. The Island at the Center of the World. New York: Doubleday, 2004.

I put the information about the English attacking New Netherlands and New Amsterdam changing it's name to New York because Peter Stuyvesant was the governor at that time.

You should not overwrite an entire existing article with your own paper. The original article looked like an encyclopedia article; your version looked like a school paper because that's what it was. Your version also didn't contain any links to other encyclopedia articles. For those reasons, it was not an improvement. -- Curps 08:20, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stuyvesant is credited with introducing tea to the United States: Oh the stuff you learn on Jeopardy! Lorax 01:16, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Bush Factoid & Decedents

This fact is probably true. Stuyvesant was born around 1600, if the average generation length is 30 years, this guy is about 14 generations from present. This means he is likely the great times whatever grandfather of thousands (consider everyone has up to 4096 great times 10 grandparents). Other than the direct male decent thing, I'm removing other descendants be removed as they are irrelevant and more importantly misleading. - Anonymous - Dec 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.224.116 (talk) 08:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Date

Birthdate seems off because on Find-A-Grave you see 1592, but on the grave you see 1612... maybe a mention like on Alexander Hamilton's bio would be a nice addition. Lincher 03:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see the 1612 at all. All I see is a death year plus a supposed age of 80 at death on one marker, and his tenure as Director-General on the other (1642-1664).

I assume Find-A-Grave's birth year is based on the 80 years old thing, but since I don't know our source for the birth year I'm bringing it into agreement with EB, which happens to match Find-A-Grave. — Laura Scudder ☎ 04:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

There is some confusion, but I'm convinced by this article (unfortunately in Dutch) which discusses this in some detail. The death marker that was placed in 1710 or 1720, 40 years after his death, says that he was 80 when he died, which means a birth year of 1592; a record from 1646 however claims he is "about 35". His only sister was almost certainly born in 1614; his parents probably married in 1607; he entered university in 1630, and the usual age at which one started studying was 18 (as it still is). Furthermore, the probable date of birth of his father Balthasar is given as 1587. On basis of that evidence, I've put back the 1612.

His father was minister of the church of Peperga from 1607 until at least 1612; and of the church of Scherpenzeel at least in 1620. So the most probable place of birth is Peperga. Eugene van der Pijll 08:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Citing the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, his article states his birth was in 1592 and death in 1672, confirming the marker on his vault at St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery "aged 80 years" is correct. Considering those two facts it is reasonable to replace the date back to 1592. Not sure which records site the dates above but in doing the math, in 1612, had P. Stuyvessant been born in 1592, he would have been 19 years old and that might imply that the records being referenced above could be those of his children. There was a sucsession of Peter Stuyvesant's in the 15th and 16th centuries.

That is not two facts; it is only one. The EB (and all other sources citing 1592 as birth year) probably all got that information from the single source of the marker on his vault; which is only a secondary source only, as it dates from around 1710. This really does not balance out the primary sources given in the Dutch article. I'm changing the date back again. Eugene van der Pijll 16:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a fact, EB is a citable source; a Ducth article that "supposes his probable birth date" is suspect. The use of the term "probable" is unacceptable in citing facts.

Suggesting the EB contributor to the P Stuyvesant article got his source from the tombstone is absurd. You have no idea where he got his source. One thing you can assume is that during the editorial process different people verified the source he used before printing the article in 1911. Hence, the reason why EB is a credible citable sorce.Dennis 18:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, we have no idea where EB got it's source. Despite the fact that it's EB, primary sources are almost always preferrable to another encyclopedia, which usually doesn't reflect current scholarship. — Laura Scudder ☎ 13:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Bush factoid

"Peter Stuyvesant was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather of U.S. Preisdent George W. Bush"

I don't believe this is true, and I've removed it. Stuyvesant and Bush are slightly related through the Livingston family, but they aren't in the same bloodline. Peter Stuyvesant's great-grandson (also named Peter Stuyvesant) married Margaret Livingston, but it was Margaret's brother James whose line descended to the Bushes. If someone knows otherwise, please feel free to put it back and cite the source. RossPatterson 04:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

You could probably tell by the exhaustive numbers of greats in that title that it was probably a vandal, not to mention the mispelling of "President". I dunno, they may have had good intentions, but 8 grands is a little much. Эйрон Кинни (t) 08:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Birth date?

An anonymous editor has changed Stuyvesant's (undocuymented) birth date from c. 1612 to c. 1602. I mistrust anonymous chasnges of statistics in general. The best approximate birth date should be in the article. --Wetman 14:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

It was discussed a bit just above. I think that in the absence of new references on it, we should keep the current dates. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that as well. It is more likely 1592 than 1602, and perhaps even more likely than both of those is 1612. But once again, it could be 1592, due to the amount of sources. Эйрон Кинни (t) 08:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I made which leg he lost specific after viewing a full-body portrait of him.

65.255.130.104 03:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)VonR

Talkin' 'bout

That compound vowel "uy" does not appear in English. Please put a "how to pronounce" at the top. Sobolewski 23:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It's pronounced 'stowvesant'
HTH
--Paulredfern1 10:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You may be right, but all of the New York usages of his name (Stuyvesant High School, Stuyvesant Town, etc.) are pronounced differently - STYE-vuh-suhnt. RossPatterson 13:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

In Dutch the bivowel "uy" is pronounced as "eui" in French "feuille"

Lignomontanus (talk) 09:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I smell vandalism...

There's been a bit of vandalism on this article, and maybe lock it. There has been some problems with anonymous editors, as well, so I think we need to prevent it. and place

Because of recent vandalism or other disruption, editing of this talk page by unregistered or newly registered users is currently disabled. Such users may discuss changes, request unprotection, or create an account.

Crad0010 00:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: I have just removed some of the crud that's been going on in the article (intro)Crad0010 00:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Requests for page protection are made at WP:RPP. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 00:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Appletons

STUYVESANT, Peter, governor of New York, born in Holland in 1602; died in New York city in August, 1682. He was the son of a clergyman of Friesland, and at an early age displayed a fondness for military life. He served in the West Indies, was governor of the colony of Curacoa, lost a lag during the unsuccessful attack on the Portuguese island of St. Martin, and returned to Holland in 1644. Being appointed director-general of New Netherlands, he took the oath of office on 28 July, 1646, and reached New Amsterdam on 11 Nay, 1647, amid such vehement firing of guns from the fort that nearly all the powder in the town was consumed in salutes. Soon after his inauguration on 27 May he organized a council and established a court of justice. In deference to the popular will, he ordered a general election of eighteen delegates, from whom the governor and his council selected a board of nine, whose power was advisory and not legislative. Among his first proclamations were orders to enforce the rigid observance of Sunday, prohibit the sale of liquor and fire-arms to the Indians, and protect the revenue and increase the treasury by heavier taxation on imports. He also endeavored to erect a better class of houses and taverns, established a market and an annual cattle-fair, and was also interested in founding a public school. One of the first acts of the new governor was to enter into a correspondence with the other colonies regarding the decisive settlement of the boundary question; but New England would not agree to terms. He also became involved in a controversy with Governor Theophilus Eaton, of Connecticut, over the claim of the Dutch to jurisdiction in that state. In 1648 a conflict arose between him and Brant Arent Van Slechtenhorst, the commissary of the young patroon of Rensselaerswyek at Beverswick, Stuyvesant claiming power irrespective of the special feudal privileges that had been granted in the charter of 1629. In 1649 Stuyvesant marched to Fort Orange with a military escort, and ordered certain houses to be razed to permit of a better defense of the fort in case of an attack of the Indians, also commanding that stores and timber should be taken from the patroon's land to repair the fortifications. This Van Slechtenhorst refused to do, and the director sent a body of soldiers to enforce his orders. The controversy that followed resulted in the commissary's maintaining his rights and the director's losing some popularity The first two years of his administration were not successful. He had serious discussions with the patroons, who interfered with the company's trade and denied the authority of the governor, and he was also embroiled in contentions with the council, which sent a deputation to the Hague to report the condition of the colony to the states-general. This report was published as " Vertoogh van Nieuw Netherlandt" (The Hague, 1650). The states-general afterward commanded Stuyvesant to appear personally in Holland; but the order was not confirmed by the Amsterdam chamber, and Stuyvesant refused to obey, saying, " I shall do as I please." In September, 1650, a meeting of the commissioners on boundaries took place in Hartford, whither Stuyvesant travelled in state. The line was arranged much to the dissatisfaction of the Dutch, who declared that "the governor had ceded away enough territory to found fifty colonies each fifty miles square." Stuyvesant grew haughty in his treatment of his opponents, and threatened to dissolve the council. A plan of municipal government was finally arranged in Holland, and the name of the new citywNew Amsterdam--was officially announced on 2 February, 1653. Stuyvesant made a speech on this occasion, skowing that his authority would remain undiminished. The governor was now ordered to Holland again ; but the order was soon revoked on the declaration of war with England. Stuyvesant prepared against an attack by ordering his subjects to make a ditch from the North river to the East river, and to erect breastworks. In 1665 he sailed into the Delaware with a fleet of seven vessels and about 700 men and took possession of the colony of New Sweden, which he called New Amstel. In his absence New Amsterdam was ravaged by Indians, but his return inspired confidence. Although he organized militia and fortified the town, he subdued the hostile savages chiefly through kind treatment. In 1653 a convention of two deputies from each village in New Netherlands had demanded reforms, and Stuyvesant commanded this assembly to disperse, saying" "We derive our authority from God and the company, not from a few ignorant subjects." The spirit of resistance nevertheless increased, and the encroachments of other colonies, with a depleted treasury, harassed the governor. In 1664 Charles II. ceded to his brother, the Duke of York, a large tract of land, including New Netherlands; and four English war vessels bearing 450 men, commanded by Captain Richard Nicholls, took possession of the harbor. On 30 August Sir George Cartwright bore to the governor a summons to surrender, promising life, estate, and liberty to all who would submit to the king's authority. Stuyvesant read the letter before the council, and, fearing the concurrence of the people, tore it into pieces. On his appearance, the people who had assembled around the city-hall greeted him with shouts of "The letter ! the letter ! " and, returning to the council-chamber, he gathered up the fragments, which he gave to the burgomasters to do with the order as they pleased. He sent a defiant answer to Nicholls, and ordered the troops to prepare for an attack, but yielded to a petition of the citizens not to shed innocent blood, and signed a treaty at his Bouwerie house on 9 September, 1664. The burgomasters proclaimed Nicholls governor, and the town was called New York. In 1665 Stuyvesant went to Holland to report, and labored to secure from the king the satisfaction of the sixth article in the treaty with Nicholls, which granted free trade. During his administration commerce had increased greatly, the colony obtaining the privilege of trading with Brazil in 1648, with Africa for slaves in 1652, and with other foreign ports in 1659. Stuyvesant endeavored unsuccessfully to introduce a specie currency and to establish a mint in New Amsterdam. He was a thorough conservative in church as well as state, and intolerant of any approach to religious freedom. He refused to grant, a meeting-house to the Lutherans, who were growing numerous, drove their minister from the colony, and frequently punished religious offenders by fines and imprisonment. On his return from Holland after the surrender, he spent the remainder of his life on his farm of sixty-two acres outside the city, called the Great Bouwerie, beyond which stretched woods and swamps to the little village of Haarlem. The house, a stately specimen of Dutch architecture, was erected at a cost of 6,400 guilders, and stood near what is now Eighth street. Its gardens and lawn were tilled by about fifty negro slaves. A pear-tree which he brought from Holland in 1647 remained at the corner of Thirteenth street and Third avenue until 1867, bearing fruit almost to the last. The house was destroyed by fire in 1777. He also built an executive mansion of hewn stone called Whitehall, which stood on the street that now bears that name. Governor Stuyvesant was above medium height, with a fine physique. He dressed with care, and usually wore slashed hose fastened at the knee by a knotted scarf, a velvet jacket with slashed sleeves over a full puffed shirt, and rosettes upon his shoes. His lost leg was replaced by a wooden one with silver bands, which accounts for the tradition that he wore a silver leg. Although abrupt in manner, unconventional, cold, and haughty, full of prejudice and passion, and sometimes unapproachable, he possessed large sympathies and tender affection. His clear judgment, quick perception, and extent of reading were remarkable. Washington Irving has humorously described him in his " Knickerbocker's History of New York." The illustrations represent the old Stadt Huys, and the tombstone of Stuyvesant in the outer wall of St. Mark's church in New York city.--His wife, Judith Bayard, born in Holland; died in New York in 1687, was the sister of Samuel Bayard, of Amsterdam, who married Anna Stuyvesant. She spoke several languages, possessed an excellent voice and a cultivated taste in music, displayed artistic skill in dress, and extended a wide hospitality. She left a fund to the Dutch church in New York for St. Mark's chapel.--Stuyvesant's son, Nicholas William, born in 1648; died in 1698, married Maria, the daughter of William Beckman, and afterward the daughter of Brant Van Slechtenhorst. Of their three children, GERARTDUS married his second cousin, Judith Bayard, and only one of their four sons, PETER, born in 1727, left descendants. He married Margaret, daughter of Gilbert Livingston, and their sons were Peter Gerard and Nicholas William. Their daughters were Judith, who married Benjamin Winthrop; Cornelia, who married Dirck Ten Broeck ; and Elizabeth, who married Colonel Nicholas Fish, and became the mother of Hamilton Fish. --Peter's son, Peter Gerard, lawyer, born in New York city in 1778; died at Niagara Falls, New York, 16 August, 1847, was graduated at Columbia in 1794, studied law, was admitted to the bar, and practised in New York city. He was a founder of the New York historical society, of which he was president from 1836 till 1840. His residence, " Peters-field," and that of his brother Nicholas William, the "Bowery House," were built before the Revolution, and were situated on their father's Bouwerie farm. The chief portion of this property is still (1888) in the possession of his descendants, Hamilton Fish, Benjamin R. Winthrop, and Lewis M. Rutherford, the astronomer.

---

I think this qualifies as a front page feature story, or at least a "Did you know?" story. Suldrew 22:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

---

There was a journalist that opposed Stuyvesant, sort of the conflict between the govenor, who saw New York as a business, and someone working to build a concept of citizen and he locked the journalist up... anyone know aything about this? I was hoping to find some discussion of it in the article. Also, someone slipped something about a computer game in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willep (talk • contribs) 01:06, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Birth Date (Revisited)

Currently we have two different birth years distributed within this page's content. I think that we should seek to resolve the discrepancy and get them in sync.

Reviewing the rather old discussion above , i see we're trying to decide between birth years from two sources. We have 1592, which is cited from what's considered a reliable tertiary source (EB). We also have 1612, which is cited from a Dutch article (linked above), possibly a secondary source, whose reliability is questioned.

While i personally agree with Eugene van der Pijll that the Dutch article's information seems more internally consistent, the truth is that Wikipedia's guidelines might suggest that the trade-off weighs in favor of reliability. Put another way, my (or others') personal views on data quality don't count for much.  :) This (and other things) about Wikipedia annoy me, but it has agreed-upon guidelines that we should follow (even if we are simultaneously seeking to revise them). I feel that we should therefore either seek to validate the Dutch article's reliability as a secondary source (which would make it a stronger source according to the guidelines), or accept that we must live with the trusted tertiary source until a truly better one (in the eyes of those same guidelines) can be found.

That said, i'd like to re-open this discussion in the hopes that we might review what we have with respect to the relevant guidelines, agree which source better fits them, and then repair the article.

I'd appreciate any and all constructive input.

An Earthshine (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I've just happened upon this article. It is a mess. Even the infobox couldn't make up its mind, as it was asking us to accept he was born in 1592 and died in 1672 at the age of 60. One thing we simply cannot have under any circumstances is telling our readers two inherently contradictory things. The year 1612 is well-enough cited for it to be a birth date we can live with, at least for now. I've made some tweaks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:49, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

legacy

Freedom of religion was tested during his governorship and provided a lasting legacy.

It seems weird to have in his legacy, something that he was completely against. Surely freedom of religion came about despite his wish, rather than being a legacy he passed down to later generations of settlers. --86.162.175.76 (talk) 20:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

It was for this reason, before I read this comment, that I removed this factoid from the article. What freedom of religion in the New Amsterdam colony was forced over PS's objections by the managers of the Dutch West Indies Company, he had litlle or no part in creating it. (see Burrows, Edwin G. and Wallace, Mike (1999). Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-195-11634-8. pp. 58-61) Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no mention of the illegitimate families, of which I am a descendent. I don't have any reference material only family anecdotes and hope someone can verify the following: It seems that Peter Stuyvesant had many extramarital affairs and those children were given the surname of Silvernail because of the silver nail that was used to attach a prosthetic leg then called "peg leg". There is a town in NYS called Silvernailville or Silvernail (but not easily found on a map and it's not showing up on Google). As family lore has it, he built houses in this community for the women and children. I do not know if he provided monetary support in any other way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.89.110.121 (talk) 13:20, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with documentation on this (and, of course, nothing about it should be added to the article without being supported by a references from a reliable source). Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:58, 11 June 2011 (UTC)