Talk:Peter Nicol Russell

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment.

Updating Peter Nicol Russell's Wikipedia page as part of a University Assignment

I am currently completing a University assignment called 'Writing for the Digital World' where I am tasked with developing a stub article. I have chosen this article as the subject was a significant benefactor to the University at which I now attend, and played a large role in the development of engineering works & iron foundries in Sydney, Australia. So far, I have made minor adjustments to the 'Early Life' section, and have re-worked the 'Career in Australia' section to include information on Russell's business activities in Australia. I will be periodically adding to this article over the first half of 2022. I have sourced images to include in the article from archival storage, which I hope will bring to life the extent of Russell's works and his contribution to Sydney's development in the 1800's. Chasseur99 (talk) 07:25, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey mate.

The article is pretty good. I personally would expand in a way it provides a bit more context. For example, I read in here that his companies produced gun boats for the New Zealand government to use in the Maori Wars. Interesting...

Another thing, I would merge the topic "Industrial unrest" with the beginning of the text. It's just me, but I don't like these small topics and I think this bit would do great in the introduction section.

Anyways, that's just me. Best of luck :) Pachequis (talk) 07:52, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Brilliant. Thanks so much for your feedback mate. I really appreciate it. I will most definitely work on your suggestions! Cheers Chasseur99 (talk) 08:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Paul2520's feedback

@Chasseur99: here is some feedback:

• Not all sentences have inline citations. For example, the first paragraph in Early life, the first sentence in Career in Australia, and the last sentence in Sydney Foundry and Engineering Works. There are a couple more further down, too.
• The table in the Legacy section is a great start, but could use more pictures.
• The references could be cleaned up a little. When you look at the references, you see three bare URLs (one of which won't click because the "from" and URL are squished together like fromhttp:/). All references should be in citation templates. I have a lot of experience here, and am happy to help -- let me know.
• Lastly (and maybe I should have started with this), thanks for your edits! I'm grateful to see you added several references, and started that table I mentioned.

I hope this helps! Another great way to get feedback is the Wikipedia:Peer review process. = paul2520 💬 02:50, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

All this advice is brilliant @Paul2520: - I really appreciate it. It does need a bit of cleaning up as you mentioned, and I will take onboard the additional feedback you have suggested. Do you know how I might go about getting the article rated in the near future under one of the WikiProjects that it is a part of? Thanks once again Chasseur99 (talk) 03:16, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@Chasseur99: two options: (1) post on the talk page of any/all of the WikiProjects. (2) Mention in the peer review process that you've made improvements and are aiming to boost the article's rating. = paul2520 💬 12:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@Paul2520 ok great, will do. Thanks! Chasseur99 (talk) 12:48, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Feedback from Rangasyd

@Chasseur99: I've made some significant edits. Let's start with the infobox:

1. He was not appointed a KBE; he was appointed a KtB. The KtB does not have a post-nominal
2. Please use {{birth date}} and {{death date}} in inboxes, instead of hard coded dates; the latter also helps calculate age at death
3. Not every knows what née means, so I typically link it as née

Then, looking at the article body:

1. Foundry is used in the lead. It's not a common word, hence I'd link it
2. I prefer use of the Oxford comma yet realise that others don't
3. 'modern-day Sydney CBD' is unclear when you're referring to the 1838 settlement of Sydney … I would reverse the link
4. I'm not a fan of 'but' or 'finally' - other words can be used to achieve the same purpose, or be dropped
5. Several sentences can be joined together to make it easier to read
6. English pounds or Australian pounds? There was a difference
7. We use metric measurements in Australia; linking to non-metric measurements
8. I've converted all images to the same (thumb) size. There is nothing to be gained from images of different size and it distracts the eye
9. There was overuse of nouns that were not proper nouns
10. Many of the paragraphs were merged to make the flow much tighter around common themes
11. Added Australian citation to appointment as at KtB
12. Repaid redirected link and add post-nominal to RA (not everyone knows what RA means)
13. Repaired several poor links in references… including several {{bare URL}}s
14. Removed over-linking of the USyd and its Great Hall and the Faculty / School / Building
15. Created a Gallery for images to improve and streamline layout

I'm happy to discuss any / all of the above. It's still a Start article. Reference should be made to WP:BLP before proceeding further. Rangasyd (talk)

Thanks @Rangasyd: for all this feedback. I really appreciate all the stylistic improvements you have made. I agree with you for most of your points, but a few:

1. On the matter of currency, the Australian pound was only established in 1910 (Australian pound), which makes me believe that, and given Russell passed away in London and his will was proclaimed there, the bequest was actually in British pounds. I won't change this though until we discuss & agree further.
2. Re the knighthood, thanks for picking up on this. The citation in The Gazette is unclear as to what honour Russell received. The fact that it was awarded and announced in Britain, and that Russell was residing in London at the time for a period of several decades, makes me think that it could be a KBE, but on the other hand given that the others in the citation are also from the colonies, it makes me think that it indeed could be a KtB... I'll have a further dig on this one.
3. On the topic of WP:BLP, I note that the policy only covers people who were born in the past 115 years. Russell was born in 1816, which surely falls outside this time frame. Should we still go according to his page or is there a more appropriate policy to follow?

What do you think it needs to be done to improve the article further? There is very little additional material I have been able to find on Russell.

Many thanks again for all of this amazing feedback! Chasseur99 (talk) 23:33, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, just also re the rating, I note a comparable article, John Bradfield (engineer), which is shorter and has a similar number of citations, is a C-class article, so I'm just curious what more needs to be done to get to this level:) Or otherwise if Bradfield's article requires re-rating. Thanks! Chasseur99 (talk) 23:39, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I've contributed a bit to Bradfield over the years. Bradfield did a lot. The question is, does the article accurately describe the individual's place in history, relative to all other articles? There is no definitive answer on this. Who is more important, Mozart, Paul Lennon, on EMINEN? George Washington or Donald Trump, etc.? In the context of things, Russell appeared to have achieved little, so perhaps his article is complete; or perhaps he did more and the article is incomplete. I'm not the best placed to assess that as it's outside my area of knowledge. I could do more research, but, like most of us, I'm pressed for time.

1. If GBP, then all the more reason to include it, if you have evidence that it was GBP and AUP. Add the citation that shows it was GBP.
2. If you look at the reference I added from the It's an Honour database, it's clear there is no post-nominal, which means its a Knight Bachelor and NOT a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (the latter being a much much much higher ranking).
3. If in doubt, use BLP
4. Dunno. I'm not the subject matter expert. Mitchell Library. USyd Library (especially in the Faculty of Engineering), etc.

Cheers. Rangasyd (talk) 13:32, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

List of significant works and remaining items

The "List of significant works and remaining items" section should probably be split into two clearly distinct sections - "list of significant works" and (possibly a subsection) "works that have been preserved". Mitch Ames (talk) 02:36, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree - I think the whole Legacy section is a bit messy. It is largely how I came across it when I started working on it (apart from the 'list of significant works section'). I will work on this over the next little while. Thanks Chasseur99 (talk) 02:45, 18 April 2022 (UTC)