Talk:Peter Ford (actor)

Untitled

Hi,

So I am not sure of the interface here, so I am not sure I am posting this in the right place, but I am confused why the page would be deleted.

My dad was working on something and someone mentioned that the wikipedia page that references him as an actor is blank (basically if you click on the Peter Ford disambigious link then click on Peter Ford (Actor) it takes you to a page which tell you to log in to fill it out). So I just thought I would fill out the existing link with some information about him.

I am not suggesting my father is near the stature of my grandfather, but I wasn't creating a link on that basis, the link existed and I was just adding information.

Apart from some cameos in my grandfather's films, he did have a regular role in a TV show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cade's_County, he did have a single under Philips Records, he was a successful builder (that Frank Gehry House was actually quite notable "http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/frank-gehry-schnabel-house", as Architectural Digest refers to it as "one of the greatest houses of the 20th century") and he did have a talk show for several years on KIEV. He also did write a biography on my grandfather that has done pretty well for the University of Wisconsin Press (it's not like he self published it).

If the article needs to be shorter, or simpler, or in a different format, I am more than happy to edit. There are plenty of people on Wikipedia who have accomplished quite a bit less than what I noted above, so I don't really see what the issue is in that sense.

Also, I didn't create the page, I simply went to a page for my father which had no information. Wikipedia suggested I log in and fill out the page, which I did. I am clearly not creating a page solely based on lineage.

Rwf121202 (talk) 20:21, 25 April 2016 (UTC)Ryan

@Rwf121202: Firstly, yes, this is absolutely the right place to post.

Secondly, the article did not in fact exist before you created it. The link existed on the Peter Ford disambiguation page because another editor thought you father was worth mentioning there. But when a link is red, that simply means that there is no actual article on the other side of the link. This isn't a bad thing--as an example, not all of the actors in a particular movie may have their own articles, but an editor might leave a redlink to an actor if they think they may be notable enough for their own article as an encouragement to another editor to start one.

Regarding this article in particular: Please read Wikipedia's notability guidelines for biographies. What we really need here is verifiable references from reliable sources which are independent of the subject. I don't doubt the veracity of your father's web site, but it should not be the primary source for the article. Have there been news stories written specifically about him independently of his parents?

Regarding comparisons with other biographical articles: With all of the millions of articles here, making comparisons with other articles tends not to be a strong argument for keeping or deleting an article. Without knowing which other pages you've seen, it may be that a given subject has indeed "accomplished quite a bit less" but those accomplishments are well-documented and otherwise deemed to meet the notability standard, or maybe the article in fact does not meet the standard, but it just hasn't received sufficient scrutiny. We're all volunteers here, and we're not perfect.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask further questions. --Finngall ^talk 20:46, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I completely agree about the comparison point, I was just trying to point out that notability is a bit subjective.

Also, the lineage tie in is challenging, because my Dad has done a lot of interviews and has had a lot of articles published about him, but invariably there is some mention of his parents (sometimes that is the primary purpose, other times it is of secondary or tertiary interest). I mean here are my parents on a magazine cover, (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Peter-Lynda-Ford-1972-Lets-Live-Magazine-son-of-Glenn-Ford-Eleanor-Powell/162046195326?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36499%26meid%3D9a2e51313e4a45db99a57cb5e03adac9%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D161750183556), I have never read the story, but I bet you my grandfather is mentioned in the article. So is this about him independent of my grandfather? Perhaps not entirely, but the cover the magazine is just mentioning my parents...so I am not sure that is a very clear line in cases like this.

Clearly had my father been an economist (which is what I do for a living), creating a wikipedia page based on his relation to my grandfather would violate the lineage policy. Again though, he was in a TV show, he had a record deal, he had a radio show, he was a successful custom builder of homes (building an architecturally significant home), he had a book published...his career was far more in the public eye than the average person (certainly more so than mine). My wife and I are not on magazine covers, nor were there AP article curious about whether I want to be a singer: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19650125&id=vWtPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-gQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4065,5679966&hl=en

That is true for a lot of people with famous parents though. I would be surprised if you found too many article about Michael Reagan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Reagan) that didn't mention the fact that his father is Ronald Reagan, is his presence on wikipedia lineage based? Are his accomplishments so much more notable than my father's? Or is the reason his accomplishments or his comments/controversies are notable because he is the child of a very famous politician? I just don't see how that wikipedia page would exist due to accomplishments independent from lineage, whereas my father's would not.

I think the same is true for several of Groucho Marx children as well: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melinda_Marx), (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam_Marx), (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Marx). If not for their famous parent how notable were these accomplishments?

I truly am not trying to be defensive, if he doesn't meet the criteria then he doesn't, I just think this is sort of gray area.

I certainly agree that more information could be better sourced, which is the great strength of wikipedia. However that is a collaborative process, of which I am happy to participate. An hour after I filled in the article I was simply informed that I failed criteria and that it would be deleted. I mean, if someone started an article about the Battle of Shiloh, and simply wrote, "Famous Civil War Battle in 1862"...I don't think it would be deleted, it would be improved. So while I agree about sources, if the article is deleted I can't really update it, or nor can others.

Again, if he doesn't meet the criteria, he doesn't...I still don't have a good sense of whether that is the case.

Rwf121202 (talk) 21:55, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

@Rwf121202: The recently added sources are mostly better. IMDb is not considered a reliable source because it can be edited by pretty much anyone. If that single of his in fact made the Billboard Hot 100, that would be enough to establish his notability as a musician per criterion #2 of the notability guideline for musicians, but the Billboard magazine you've linked to here does not say that the single made the top 60 of the Hot 100, merely that it was projected to do so. A link to an actual chart listing would be better.

I haven't gone through the rest of the changes in detail, but it's progress. Thanks for listening. --Finngall ^talk 23:43, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I changed out some of the IMDB, it is not always easy to find an independent article about this sort of thing, but I am working on it. I didn't read that Billboard article closely enough, I changed the language to be more accurate and I found the American Bandstand episode. Looking at subsequent versions, I don't believe he made the cut.

I also added the Rock Around the Clock story (since it was elsewhere on Wikipedia), but I am not sure how I could independently verify it as even news outlets (http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/07/haley.rock/) (http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bill-haley-and-the-comets-record-rock-around-the-clock)are going to reference my father for the story.

Rwf121202 (talk) 01:19, 26 April 2016 (UTC)