Talk:Petar Ičko

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Greek origin

Until the early 19th. Century the Balkan Orthodox Christians were part of the Rum millet. The belonging to this Orthodox community was more important, then the ethnic origins. This community became basic form of social organization and source of identity for all the ethnic groups inside it. However, under Ottoman rule ethnonyms never disappeared and this is evident from a Sultan's Firman from 1680 which lists the ethnic groups in the Balkan lands as follows: Greeks (Rum), Albanians (Arnaut), Serbs (Sirf), Vlachs (Eflak) and Bulgarians (Bulgar). The rise of nationalism in Europe under the influence of the French revolution had extended to the Ottoman Empire and at that time some Orthodox intellectuals from different ethnic background (Aromanian, Arvanitic and Greek) tried to reconceptualize the Rum millet. They argued for a new, ethnic “Romaic” national identity and new Roman (Greek) state, but their visions of a future state included all Balkan Orthodox Christians. However Ichko died at the same time - in 1808 and hardly had a strong developed Greek or other national feelings. He was just from Aromanian or Slavic, (Bulgarian) origin. No records for his ethnic Greek origin or that he called for this new “Romaic” identity are available in the provided sources. More, the claims about Ichko's Aromanian background are highly questionable. According to different sources from the second half of the 19th. and early 20th. century, his birthplace - the village of Katranitsa was populated mostly by Slavic-speakers - Patriarchists and Muslim Pomaks. There were also some Turks, but no data for Vlachs is preserved in the statistics. The first ethnic Greeks settled here during 1920s. Additionally, the endings -ici, -ica and -icko (and its adverbial equivalent -icka) are ultimately of Slavic origin in Greek language (Victor Friedman). Also, no one neutral (non-Greek) source is provided, confirming his Greek origin. Jingiby (talk) 07:49, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bulleted list item

References

Greek origin

Zbornik istorije književnosti. Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti. 1960. p. 75. Retrieved 1 March 2013. Међутим, ми данас знамо да је Петар Ичко био Грк
Dragomir S. Stevanović (1977). Pod crvenom kugom. Stevanović. p. 211. Retrieved 1 March 2013. Петар Ичко је био наш министар иностраних дела иако је био Грк,
NIN: nedeljne informativne novine. Politika. 1989. p. 10. Retrieved 1 March 2013. Петар Ичко, угледни београдски трго- вац, пореклом Грк
Marinko Paunović (1968). Beograd--večiti grad. N.U. "Svetozar Marković,". p. 243. Retrieved 1 March 2013. Митрополит београдски Методије и Петар Ичко, грци по пореклу,
Slavic papers. 1970. p. 4. Retrieved 1 March 2013. For purposes of illustration, we might take the assertions of various national historians that Petar Icko was a Serb, a Macedonian, a Bulgar and a Greek

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:14, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian origin in Sebian sources

Петар Ичко био Бугарин.
Петар Ичко пореклом је Бугарин. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jingiby (talk • contribs) 11:13, 1 March 2013

Wikipedia:Citation overkill --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:21, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Zbornik istorije književnosti, Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti, 1960. Но нису ту у питању само карактерне особине Петра Ичка, или, како га Јеж зове Петра Бугарина.
Bŭlgarete v Makedonia, Ĭordan Ivanov, Bŭlgarska akademia na naukite, 1915: Петра Ичка мого сам извеесно и поуздано разумети: да jе у Катраници рођен (дакле Бугарин): [1].
Život i dela velikog Dorda Petrovića KaraDorda Vrhovnog Vožda, oslobodioca i Vladara Srbije i život njegovi Vojvoda i junaka: kao gradivo za Srbsku Istoriju od godine 1804 do 1813 i na dalje, Konstantin N. Nenadović, 1884, p. 47: Петар Ичко пореклом је Бугарин а рођен је у Катраници у Македонији, [2].
Ustanak srbski od 1806 - 1810 godine, N. Dubrovin, Episkopska Knjigopečatnja, 1866, p. 23: Два кнеза и едан искусни у политичним пословима бугарин, стар Ичко, били су послати у Цариград:[3].
Istorija srpske revolucije, Leopold von Ranke, U Drž. štampariji, 1864, p. 122: У Цариград своје посланике с предлозима — пошлу два кнеза и уз њих једног Бугарина, вешта у тима светским пословима, Петра Ичка: [4]. Jingiby (talk) 12:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify. There are sources which claim he was Greek, Aromanian, Serb, Bulgarian... Nobody denied that some sources refer to him as Bulgarian. There is no need for citation overkill.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most sources, especially unbiased, (i.e. non-Balkan) refer to him as Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 14:16, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article already presents five different sources which support his Bulgarian ethnicity, three of them being 19th century works, one 1922 material of unknown authorship and one of Bulgarian author? Do you really think more sources should be presented to emphasize his Bulgarieness by additional overcitation? If you think sources from Balkan are biased why did you present above mentioned list of Serbian sources? When you deleted the assertion about his Greek ethnicity you wrote that he could hardly have "developed Greek or other national feelings". Now you insist on his Bulgarieness. What is actually your point? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:47, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problems the article to remain in this description. Jingiby (talk)

Aromanian

Sultan's Firman from 1680 lists clearly the ethnic groups in the Balkan lands as follows: Greeks (Rum), Albanians (Arnaut), Serbs (Sirf), Vlachs (Eflak) and Bulgarians (Bulgar). Greeks and Aromanians were not the same people during Ottoman times. In 1905, after long struggle, the Sultan recognized the Aromanians officially as separate nation with its own Church, schools etc. Jingiby (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You support your opinion about Balkan people on a Sultan's firman? Is sultan ethnologist or sociologist?

If we accept (I say "if") sultan's firman as a sociology study(!), we should mention the following:

Vlachs are the today Romanians.

Aromanians is a different tribe far away from the Romanian lands, with a different ethnic backround, different origin and different customs. The only connection with the Vlachs (today's Romanians) is that their languages come from Latin (separated from latin laguage in different centuries and with individual differencies). In 1905 Romanian Foreign Policy and Propaganda tried to usurp Aromanians in order to extend their influence in Southern Balkans. After 2 decades of propaganda, money spended and pressoures to the Ottoman government (supported also by Austrungaria) for that scope, Ottoman Administration recognized the Aromanians, not as an individual nation, but as part of the Great Vlach (Romanian) nation and allowed them to have the Romanian school and church system.

So, this firman, is just a proof that Aromanians are connected with the Greeks, since Ottomans tried unsuccessfully, to put them under Romanian control, during the Macedonian struggle. Additionally I would like to mention that Aromanians declare to be Greeks in 99% percentage for the last two centuries (that we have data). And another thing: from the 18th century Aromanians used to consist Greco-Roman Associations in central Europe as immigrants, because the believed in common nationality.

According to the above, I correct the article. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts

I have added reliable neutral source that separate Aromanian identity arose during the late 18th and the early 19th century:

Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations, Volume 1 A - C, James Minahan, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, ISBN 0313321094, p 177. Jingiby (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't open that source. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 17:45, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, what you just said is that in mid 18th century, when Petros Itskos was born, there wasn't yet Aromanian identity. That means that he had just Greek Identity? That means that he has to be considered as a Greek person of Aromanian origin? After all, I think the Aromanian/Greek origin is much closer to what was really happening, than the other that you proposed. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts

I suggest to stop edit-warring. You didn't provide any reliable neutral source. Lets ask a third person, as for example Antidiscriminator. Jingiby (talk) 18:37, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Greek national identity was only emerging during the same time, i.e. only small group of intellectuals insisted during the second half of the 18th century that the Greeks are separate ethnic group. The Greek national identity was developed significantly during the first half of the 19th century. Jingiby (talk) 19:18, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that both of you are right. I also think that both of you combined material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. The best thing is to stick to what sources say about his ethnicity. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:23, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Antidiscriminator. It's OK for the moment.

I have a disagreement with Jingiby:

Petros Itskos was a member of the "Greek Association of Zemun" and was one of the first publishers of Educational Books in Greek, which he sent in his home town, Katranitsa (Pyrgi), according to "Οι Ελληνες πάροικοι του Σεμλίνου. 18ος-19ος αι. : διαμόρφωση της παροικίας, δημογραφικά στοιχεία, διοικητικό σύστημα, πνευματική και πολιτιστική δραστηριότητα (The Greek sojourners of Semlino/Zemun. 18th - 19th century: comformation of the community, demographic data, intellectual and cultural activities), Ioannis A. Papadrianos, Institution of Balkan Studies, Thessaloniki 1988". So, his Greek identity was quite strong I think.

Another thing, about the beginning of the Greek identity: As far as there were many Greek Associations all over Central and West Europe and Russia from the early 18th century and a lot of strongly Greek communities in the Greek lands (Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, Pontus, Cappadocia, Cyprus, Crete, Chios e.t.c.), as far as modern-Greek enlightenment started in Moschopolis, Kastoria, Kozani and Ioannina in the mid 18th century, as long as there was the "Rum" community since the beginning of the Ottoman rule, Greek identity was present long before the 19th century. It had maybe some variations through the circumstances of history, but it was always there.

This is my opinion anyway. But, since we write an encyclopedia here, I agree to lay on the sources and nothing more.

User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 21:20, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]