Talk:Pet, No. 9/Archive02

Request Edit C

• Information to be added or removed: I would like improve this article by citing that there is a source that positively connects the "Pet" with the Joseph Henderson. It can be found in the Index to Ship Registers, from the dates 1876 through 1885, which lists Jos. Henderson as the master of the Pet, e.g. Record of American and Foreign Shipping 1885. You will see two boats named Pet in these records, but only one is listed to Jos. Henderson as Master and N. Y. Pilots as owners. The other "Pet" is from San Francisco. --Greg Henderson (talk) 00:17, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Just a note. I previously declined it, because the primary source only identifies as "Jos. Henderson" and "Pet" and not "Pet, No.9", and per WP:PRIMARY, I judged that interpretation of that table and confirming "Jos. Henderson, Pet" to be the same as "Joseph Henderson" and "Pet, No.9" should be left to a secondary source Graywalls (talk) 00:51, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, thanks! The secondary source is a feature article about Henderson and Pet: Spirit Of Times. Another primary source is: For 14 years he was the commander of the boat "Pet"; Another secondary source is in the Russell book From Sandy Hook to 62;̊ Page 151 of this book says: He was on the pilot boat Pet ... the Agile Henderson escaped with his life." --Greg Henderson (talk) 01:05, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

No, what I'm saying is find a secondary source vouching/deferring to that table in Mysticseareport.org's table as being relevant; or directly supporting the time frame 1876-1885 as when Pet, No.9. was in service. Graywalls (talk) 01:24, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, the following citation obiturary says: "For fourteen years he [Joseph Henderson] was commander of the pilot boat Pet". The fourteen years corresponds with the Mystic seaport ship list dates. In addition, the Spirit Of The Times article talks about Henderson & Pet and the ownership of the pilot-boat. These and other primary sources should address additional support needed to tie the ship index dates to the pilot-boat Pet and captain Henderson. --Greg Henderson (talk) 21:26, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

This is more than satisfactory. At some point the evidence is so overwhelming the chances of another person of this name with this boat during this period would be unreasonable doubt defying common sense. -- GreenC 00:09, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

GreenC, Great, then can you or someone make the edit request?--Greg Henderson (talk) 00:35, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I can but giving Graywalls the courtesy of some time to respond, if he wants to, since he disputed it. -- GreenC 01:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

The article says it sank On November 21, 1889. The infobox says it was in service between "Circa 1876-1885". With sources present saying it sank in Nov, 1889, something's got to directly support it was taken out of service in 1885, otherwise, it's not adequately proven. It seems to me that it got to that conclusion from inferring from 14 years of Joseph Henderson thing. It doesn't explain what happened between 1885 to 1889. Graywalls (talk) 13:12, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

You said "otherwise it's not adequately proven". What is the "it" in this sentence? -- GreenC 15:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

the time frame of service being confined to and defined within 1876-1885 due to the presence of cited information saying it sank in 1889 Graywalls (talk) 15:16, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Seems to me it would be considered in service from the time it was built in 1866 to when it sank in 1889 .. it is {{Infobox ship career}} meaning the career of the ship not limited to a particular owner. -- GreenC 15:44, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks GreenC. Graywalls, the subject of the edit request is to include a sources that positively connect the "Pet" with the Joseph Henderson. Below is a summary of sources:

1. 1866 - Secondary sources list the Pet No. 1 as pilot boat for Boston Pilots
2. 1870-Jun 1872 - Primmary sources list the Pet as "Boston pilot-boat Pet, No. 1
3. Aug 21, 1872-1889 Primmary sources list the Pet as No. 9
4. Oct 31, 1872 Primary sources linking Joseph Henderson with the Pet
5. 1876 through 1885 - Primary sources say Jos. Henderson was registered with the Pet
6. After 1886 - Primary sources say the pilot-boat Pet, No. 9 was still in service
7. 14 years as Henderson commander of Pet - Primary source in Henderson's obituary
8. November 1889 - Primary sources say the Pet went ashore with Henderson as commander
9. Conclusion: From 1872 - 1889, Henderson was commander of the pilot-boat Pet. Before Aug. 1872, it was owned by the Boston Pilots. Update years in service to: Boston 1866-1872; New York 1872-1889. --Greg Henderson (talk) 17:39, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

So, which reliable secondary source did the analysis to draw the conclusion? Can you quote the analysis? Yes, I'm quite particular, after that USS G. W. Blunt (1856) mixup Graywalls (talk) 18:24, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

If wording of V is preventing you from arriving at the plainly obvious conclusion then WP:IAR. The sources are overwhelming. Wikipedia is not a court room it is based on common sense WP:UCS ("Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Common sense as a fundamental principle is above any policy."). You have given no reasonable reason to raise doubt. USS G. W. Blunt (1856) is a different boat, different circumstances, a different reason it is a logical fallacy red herring. -- GreenC 18:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, I found it! "Boston pilot-boat Pet has been purchased by Capt. Joseph Henderson." Source citation is: Boston Post 29 Aug 1872, Boston, Massachusetts. This ties the pilot-boat Pet with the Boston fleet and then sold to New York pilots with citation for the Pet's orgin in Boston and then ownership by Henderson and the N. Y. Pilots! --Greg Henderson (talk) 20:20, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Greghenderson2006:, has this request been completed? If not, can you repost your request below in the format of "Change X to Y", "Delete A", or "Add B after section C"? More information formating a request can be found at Template:Request edit/Instructions. Z1720 (talk) 02:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I've closed the request edit and posted a new one below. --Greg Henderson (talk) 17:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Request Edit D

• Information to be added or removed: I would like to add a citation from the Mystic Seaport website.
• Explanation of issue: The reigistration is important as it shows the owners, the vessel's name and master, where built, owners, etc.
• References supporting change: Please add the following under the section "Construction and service":

The pilot-boat Pet, was registered with the Record of American and Foreign Shipping from 1876 to 1885. She was listed as a pilot schooner, that was built in 1868. The New York Pilots were listed as owners and Joseph Henderson was listed as Master.

Hi @Greghenderson2006: I looked at the conversation above, and I have looked at the document. I believe most of the information you want to add is verified in the Mystic Seaport document, but I still have some concerns. The above text says she was registered from 1876 to 1885, but I do not find any reference to 1885 in the document. Is it located on a different page, or am I missing something from the link above? Also, this document was not published by Mystic Seaport, it's just being stored there. Who was the original publisher of this document? Perhaps a US department? When was this document published? It will probably state this near the first of the book. Thanks. Z1720 (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Z1720:, Please scroll down, the 1885 record is the last record in the list: Record of American and Foreign Shipping 1885. The source for the record is the "Record of American and Foreign Shipping," which was a was an annual shipping register published by the American Shipmaster's Association, which later became the American Bureau of Shipping. I hope this clears up your questions. Thanks!--Greg Henderson (talk) 03:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Greghenderson2006: A record ending in 1885 doesn't mean that they were no longer registered in 1886. I think it's going into too much WP:SYNTH territory so I won't add that year in the edit. As for the reference formatting, can you post the reference coding below with the correct publisher and date/year included? Mystic Seaport is not the publisher of this document and I don't know where to find this information in this document. Z1720 (talk) 20:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Z1720 Thanks for your help. The correct publisher is the American Bureau of Shipping. ABS records are at https://ww2.eagle.org/en/rules-and-resources/abs-vessel-information.html. Mystic Seaport has scanned the page images from this database to make it easier to search by Vessel Name, Year, etc. --Greg Henderson (talk) 04:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Greghenderson2006: I have added the information to the article. Can you check to make sure it is correct? Also, do you know what year the cited book was published? Z1720 (talk) 21:26, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Z1720, Looks good for now. The only thing I would have added would be the fact that the boat was registered multiple years, not just in 1876. Not sure what book you are refering to, as there are multiple books listed, all have years next to them. I appreciate your help with this request. Feel free to close it.--Greg Henderson (talk) 21:39, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Greghenderson2006: Maybe book is the wrong word. In what year was the report, cited above, first published? Z1720 (talk) 21:46, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

The first registration of the "Pet" was in 1876.--Greg Henderson (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, is "Pet" the name of the boat, or the name of the document published by Record of American and Foreign Shipping? I need the publication year of the document. Z1720 (talk) 22:54, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

The publication year of the document is 1876, which is from American Bureau of Shipping.--Greg Henderson (talk) 20:50, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Sorry for the confusion. I will add the publication year to the reference. Z1720 (talk) 20:51, 21 January 2021 (UTC)