Talk:Peroz I/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs) 11:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Will review over the following days. Constantine ✍ 11:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments by previous reviewer (nearly all addressed by the nominator, those not done are listed below)

Lede I would suggest linking Iran to History of Iran. The transliterated terms like shahanshah or Pērōž should use the {{transl}} template, not {{lang}}. where he issued gold coins of himself is a bit awkward. 'where he issued gold coins with his likeness'? Simultaneously, Iran was suffering simultaneously to what? The conquest of Balkh or of Albania? And both of these events should be placed in time, at least approximately (e.g. 'early in his reign' or similar) Well, both, considering the famine lasted from 461 to 467. Changed "At his accession" to "Early in his reign". --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2021 (UTC) in the *western* provinces of Armenia and Iberia Name Peroz is transliterated in Greek as Perozes. this is the Latin transliteration of the Greek transliteration ;). Add the actual Greek transliteration, Περόζης. Rise to power entrusted the task to the elite. the elite what? the elites? who were they? courtiers, senior military men, senior aristocracy? Unfortunately the source just says "to the elite of the realm and the major marzbans." I've added the marzban bit. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2021 (UTC) avoid diacritics in proper names (al-Tha'alibi) The brother's mother I think you mean 'the brothers' mother'? Also add that she was queen, not just a concubine. I would also place her first. She was regent, while the two brothers retired to the provinces to build up power bases. It should also be explained how Hormizd ascended the throne at Ray, when the capital was Ctesiphon. If he did not ascend the throne (which implies some broad recognition, and runs contrary to the existence of a regent), but merely claimed it for himself, then state that. italicize Codex Sprenger 30 the eastern sources are presumably also biased, since Peroz made his base there? This should be pointed out. Indeed, but how? The source doesn't point that out. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:19, 6 April 2021 (UTC) Point out that Tokharistan was independent of the Sasanian crown and fractured into small principalities to provide context. suggesting that *the* Persian account Elishe and Ghazar give to slightly different accounts I assume this is a typo for 'two'? Yup. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC) (optional) when you first mention the Mihranids' support, point out that there were close relations with Peroz, as one of their members was either tutor or foster father? This may lead to some repetition, so perhaps it needs to be restructured, with the Armenian version presented first, in its two variants, and then the Persian version, and scholarly opinion on it? Just a suggestion. Aftermath of the civil war Perhaps rename the section to 'Revolt in Caucasian Albania and famine'? You make much of the former in the lede, so it should be highlighted, and is more clear than the generic 'aftermath'. some of the Armenian aristocrats who had been jailed by his father. can you briefly mention why they had been imprisoned? I assume due to the 451 uprising? Relations with the Byzantine Empire Ardaburius is Ardabur (consul 447), I assume... Link the Peace of Acilisene defense of the Caucasus against nomadic attacks add 'from the northern steppes' or similar ascendancy -> accession when some Arab clients of the Sasanians made incursions into Byzantine territory due to suffering from a two-year drought. -> when some Arab clients of the Sasanians, suffering from a two-year drought, made incursions into Byzantine territory. Also, do we know which Arabs these were? Seems to have been the Tayy. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2021 (UTC) War with the Kidarites demonstrates *that* the Huns They swiftly adopted Iranian imperial symbolism and titulature.[29] Their coins also imitated Sasanian imperial coinage.[29] I would recommend merging the two sentences, as they are about the same phenomenon and use the same source early 5th-century strike the dash arrived to the court of Kunkhas *at* the court he finally vanquished *the* Kidarites sent to the Northern Wei -> 'sent to the Chinese Northern Wei dynasty' for context First and second war with the Hephthalites are by marred defects -> are marred by errors their former subjects–the Hephthalites, who were based in eastern Tokharistan–like Mehama, this is a bit confusing. Mehama is stated not to be a Hephthalite above ('Hephthalites and other Huns, such as Mehama'), but the phrasing here suggests that *all* their former subjects were Hephthalites. Something does not add up. Removed mention of Mehama. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:02, 6 April 2021 (UTC) Link Ikhshid and Afshin Link poll tax Revolts in Armenia and Iberia There he hoped that the Iranians would not cause an incident at the border in order to avoid conflict with the Byzantines. Awkward. Perhaps 'He hoped that the Iranians would not pursue and attack him there, in order to avoid risking a conflict with the Byzantines'. Peroz's brother and successor—Balash (r. 484–488) Balash has already been introduced above, so 'Peroz's brother and successor, Balash,...' add a brief gloss of hazarapet Third war with the Hephthalites and death The tower of Peroz's grandfather, Bahram V, which had been erected near the Oxus as a boundary tower awkward. 'A tower erected as a boundary marker near the Oxus by Peroz's grandfather, Bahram V,...' positioning themselves behind it. -> positioning his forces behind it. Does the source really say 'jungle'? I struggle to imagine a jungle in Central Asia... The source says forest, changed it to that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:14, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Aftermath Explain or gloss/replace 'Eranshahr' (e.g. '...vitiated the pretensions of [the Iranian empire].' reconquering the lands lost under his father *all* the lands? Including Sindh? Just Khorasan (unfortunately xd). --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:44, 4 April 2021 (UTC) After him, the main residence of the shahanshah was moved to Ctesiphon Any reason why a) the residence was not at the capital and b) why the move was made after Perox? Yup, added. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Religious policy I restructured the section to be thematically a bit more coherent. Sasanian monarchs only persecuted other religions when it was in their urgent political interests to do so quite true, but explain this in the context of Peroz's actions? What were the 'urgent political interests' in his case? Or is it unknown? the reigns of Kavad I (r. 488–496, 498/9–531) and Khosrow I (r. 531–579) links and regnal dates are redundant, as they have been given earlier Referencing Some inline references are in wrong numerical order, e.g. [9][7][6] or [35][33] Be consistent in using location in the book references or not (recommend you do). I'm not even sure to how to find out the location of a reference, it is be supposed to be the location of the publisher? --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC) Try to find ISBNs for the referenced volumes of the Encyclopaedia Iranica. How do I do that? --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:56, 7 April 2021 (UTC) Badiyi 2020 lacks publisher, isbn, etc. Is Daryaee 2000 from a print volume, or online? If the former, add the details, if the latter, mark it as such. I've no idea tbh. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC) In Daryaee 2014, if I am not mistaken, the page range given are the entire book, so please omit them. Page ranges only for chapters etc. Ditto for de la Vaissière, Rezakhani, and Traina. Conversely, Potts needs to have the page range reflect the chapter, not the entire book. Gadjiev's refs are chapters, so they need book title, book editors, publisher, etc. Ditto for Howard-Johnston (whose first name erroneously also includes his surname) Use a consistent ISBN format (with or without dashes) Grousset needs oclc number A what number? --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:38, 6 April 2021 (UTC) HistoryofIran, its 3084562. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 19:31, 6 April 2021 (UTC) Ah, many thanks! --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2021 (UTC) @HistoryofIran: I may have missed some other cases, please go over your sources and format them properly. @HistoryofIran: done with my review for now. Ping me once the points above have been addressed or if you have any questions. A very thoroughly and clearly written article, most of the issues found are for clarity and context. Well done. Constantine ✍ 17:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC) @HistoryofIran:, @Cplakidas: why is this review stuck for so long - it seem that all is in order at this point?--౪ Santa ౪99° 13:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC) Think this might needs to be reviewed by someone else x). --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Unaddressed comments from above:

War with the Kidarites

• They swiftly adopted Iranian imperial symbolism and titulature. Their coins also imitated Sasanian imperial coinage. I would recommend merging the two sentences, as they are about the same phenomenon and use the same source.

Referencing

• Be consistent in using location in the book references or not (recommend you do). Y

I'm not even sure to how to find out the location of a reference, it is be supposed to be the location of the publisher? HofI

This can be left undone. AM

• Try to find ISBNs for the referenced volumes of the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Y

How do I do that? HofI

Not needed as the source is online. AM

• Is Daryaee 2000 from a print volume, or online? If the former, add the details, if the latter, mark it as such. Y

I've no idea tbh. HofI

Comments

Lead section / infobox

• Link historiography. Y
• Unfortunately, the image does not seem to be in the public domain. Y

2 Rise to power

• Amend his eldest son to Yazdegerd’s eldest son, for the sake of clarity. Y

3.1 Revolt in Caucasian Albania and famine

• an accord: - there should be a semicolon here (see MOS:COLON). Please amend the article where it occurs elsewhere a couple of times.

3.2 Relations with the Byzantine Empire

• The map appears to be unsourced, and therefore should be replaced.

Y

3.3 War with the Kidarites

• Link chronicles; power vacuum. Y
• Why is "Iranian Huns" in quotes?

They weren't necessarily of Iranian stock (that bit is still disputed), they are just referred as 'Iranian' Huns for practical reasons due to their cultural/linguistic/administrative similarity with them if I'm not mistaken. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Understood HistoryofIran. Other readers may wonder about the quotes as I did, so I definitely think as note of explanation (based on your reply to my query) is warranted here. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

N Not yet sorted. AM

• used as a casus belli - could this be rephrased in plain English? Y
• manpower – 'enough manpower'? Y
• who declined – 'which declined'? Y
• He then offered peace to the king of the Kidarites, Kunkhas, and his sister in marriage, but sent a woman of low status instead. This sentence is a little difficult to unpick (tweaking and his sister in marriage would help). Y
• After some time Kunkhas found about Peroz's swap – was it a swap, or simply a deception? Is the length of time known? Also, I would have started the following paragraph with this sentence. Y

Deception I think. Yes, unfortunately. I don't seem to understand the third line? --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:45, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

The third paragraph would start as After some time Kunkhas found about Peroz's deception, and in turn attempted to trick him, by requesting him to send military experts to strengthen his army. When a group of 300 military experts arrived at the court of Kunkhas at Balaam (possibly Balkh), they were either killed or disfigured and sent back to Iran, with the information that Kunkhas did this due to Peroz's false treaty. Thoughts? Amitchell125 (talk) 12:15, 15 June 2021 (UTC) Y

3.4 First and second war with the Hephthalites

• Do all “modern historians agree”, or just the three authors cited? Y

Not yet sorted. AM

Well the event is quite obscure and not many historians bother analysing it, so can't really say ”all” I guess. Changed it ”many”. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:39, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

• Unable to raise the other ten – is redundant imo, as the rest of sentence implies this. Y

3.5 Revolts in Armenia and Iberia

• Assuming the link to ‘Armenian rising’ in a previous section is correct, remove the link to Battle of Avarayr, as it’s a duplicate link. Y
• Looking at the map, it appears to originate from an unsourced image (i.e. this), and unless the source is known, it’s not suitable for use here. Y
• which eventually resulted in her martyrdom – I'm unclear how her martyrdom came about. Y

Thoughts ? [1] --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:20, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

• His policies were unacceptable – for clarity's sake I would amend this to ‘Varsken’s policies were unacceptable’ (assuming the name is correct).Y
• Adhur Gushnasp was soon defeated – is a year available for this event? Y

This happened in 482 as well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:37, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

It's worth adding the year, as During the summer... occurs later in the paragraph, also without referring to the year concerned. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2021 (UTC) Y

• I would avoid guerrilla warfare as a way of explaining Vahan’s tactics, as the phrase dates from the 19th century. Consider amending to something like ‘where they avoided a head-on confrontation with the enemy’. Y

Not yet sorted. AM

Is that really neccessary? The word is still regularly used in scholarly sources. I feel like ‘where they avoided a head-on confrontation with the enemy’ doesn't really explain it as well as 'guerrilla warfare'. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:30, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

It's what I would do, but I understand your POV. AM

3.6 Third war with the Hephthalites and death

• Unlink Afghanistan (MOS:OL). Y
• I’m unclear on four of Peroz's sons or brothers. Why is there uncertainty about who was killed?

No idea tbh - that bit isn't mentioned. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:46, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I would amend the text to make it clear that you are quoting Potts, so to avoid the text sounding unclear (which imo it does at present). Amitchell125 (talk) 12:19, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

N Not yet sorted. AM

• The last sentence should imo be placed further up in the section (perhaps as a note after near the Oxus). Y

3.7 Aftermath

• Remove the link to Kavad I (as it has already been linked in the text). Y
• Add a comma after According to Payne. Y
• Remove Indeed (see MOS:OP-ED). Y
• The last paragraph is off-topic and imo should be removed (or moved to another article).

Imho it should stay, since it tells how the rivalry between these two empires concluded and the fact that the defeat and death of Peroz I still hunted the Sasanian family and was one of their reasons for ending the Hepthalites. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:37, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

4 Religious policy

• he did not attempt – ‘Peroz did not attempt’ is better (which means amending Peroz's reign to ‘his reign’). Y
• At the same time – it’s not clear what time is being referred to here. Y
• I would amend the caption to clarify why the image is placed in this section. Y

5 Building projects

• Link iconography. Y
• to have the city of Perozapat ... constructed. 'Built' sounds better, as cities are not really single constructions. Y
• the basilica was not constructed by Peroz – ‘commissioned by Peroz’ (or ‘ordered to be built’)? Y
• the modern historian Stephen H. Rapp suggests that is unneeded detail. Y
• terminus ad quem should be in italics (if you want to use it, I’d rather plain English was used instead).

6 Coinage and imperial ideology

• receiving – 'received' sounds better, as the paragraph is referring to historical events in the past tense. Y
• Peroz depicts himself – amend to 'Peroz depicted himself'. Y

9 Notes

• Unlink Afghanistan again. Y

11 Bibliography

• Hewsen is not cited in the article, and so should not appear in the Bibliography. Y
• Add an ISSN number (0078-2696) for Alram.

Err.. there's an ISSN number for Jstor articles? --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:48, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

The ISSN number applies to the journal, and exists whether or not the article appears in JSTOR. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:05, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

N Not yet sorted. AM

• Dédéyan' s book should read ‘History of the Armenian People’. Y

Sorry but doesn't it do that already? --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:47, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Title case required (MOS:CAPTITLE, I've done it for you) AM

12.1 Ancient works

• Full citations for the books are needed. Consider using https://archive.org/details/GhazarParbetsisHistoryOfTheArmenians/mode/2up and https://archive.org/details/b24750281_0002 as links. Y

On hold

An enjoyable article. I'm putting it on hold for a week until 19 June to allow time for the issues raised to be sorted out. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 20:53, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick start—if you cross out on completion, I'll tick to say I agree. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:07, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I notice that there are still a number of outstanding points still be addressed (some are minor ones). Please could you sort these or discuss them with me, to avoid the article being failed in a couple of days' time? They are highlighted with a small cross, I'll remove these when they become unnecessary. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 06:52, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi HistoryofIran, apart from the map issue we are now dealing with minor points, which can probably be foregone. Just the map to be sorted? Amitchell125 (talk) 18:16, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Sure. I am trying to find a source which depicts a map of the Byzantines in that era, but unfortunately to no avail. I just replaced it with another made by Cplakidas, based on sources. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

We've now got a GA on our hands here, anything else is icing on the cake. Passing now, congratulations. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:13, 18 June 2021 (UTC)