Talk:Peppermint Patty

Patty last name

Just an addition. Party's last name is used on January 8, 1985 as well.

Dan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.147.104.34 (talk) 01:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Totally not a lesbian

I keep seeing fourth hand sources that state that CMS said that she wasn't a lesbian. (Which given her only known crush is a no-brainer.) But where did he say this? Hcobb (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not currently in the article, but the frequent pop culture refs to Patty being a lesbian probably needs some mention (citing reliable sources that discuss it, of course). "Schultz consciously named the first Patty in Peanuts after his cousin Patricia Swanson, whose temperament more closely resembles that of the more substantial character Peppermint Patty, but after revealing this to Patty Swanson, and especially after lesbian groups claimed Peppermint Patty as one of their own, Shultz kept his cousin concealed as his source, partly out of respect for Patty's privacy." (Schulz and Peanuts: A Biography by David Michaelis, p 221.) After Ellen, of course, discusses it,[1] as do Queering Elementary Education: Advancing the Dialogue about Sexualities and Schooling (William J. Letts, James Thomas Sears, page 6), Learning to Live (Douglas Palermo, page 2), Gay Affirmative Therapy for the Straight Clinician: The Essential Guide (Joe Kort, digital copy - no page # available), Fool for Love: New Gay Fiction (edited by Timothy J. Lambert, R. D. Cochrane, digital copy - no page # available), SpongeBob SquarePants and Philosophy: Soaking Up Secrets Under the Sea! (edited by Joseph J. Foy, pp 69-70), etc. - SummerPhD (talk) 22:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Seventh new character?

The claim that Peppermint Patty was the seventh new character introduced after the launch of the strip is overlooking various, more minor characters (Charlotte Braun, for example, or Faron, or 4, 5, and 6.) This should be excised. (I'm avoiding editing it myself due to COI concerns.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 06:48, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Punctuation marks and the Reichardt name

The quoting of the Feb 5 1993 strip has just been edited from being incorrect to being also incorrect. Schulz used some non-standard punctuation techniques, and if we're quoting them (and frankly, I'm not sure we need to quote the strip here), we should quote them correctly. What follows, with bullets added at the front and with straight quotes, is the text of the strip:

• SEE, MARCIE? MY AD IS IN THE PAPER..
• "HELP WANTED.. ATTRACTIVE YOUNG LADY CAN'T REMEMBER HISTORY DATES"
• "DOESN'T UNDERSTAND FRACTIONS.. CALL PATRICIA REICHARDT AT NUMBER BELOW.."
• WHAT DO YOU THINK, MARCIE?
• YOU ARE EXTREMELY WEIRD, SIR

If we include it (and again, I think it's not necessary for the point being made), we should use Schulz's double-periods where he uses them, and not use periods at all where he doesn't use them (not inserting them, per MOS:LQ). Schulz used these techniques often enough that they should not be considered an error on his part. In terms of capitalization under MOS:ALLCAPS, the two periods should be considered an end of a sentence. Schulz seems to use it where we would normally expect a period, not an ellipsis. If for some reason we do need to list all the times that Reichardt appears, there is a third: Jan 8, 1985. I will not do these edits myself, due to a conflict of interest: I work frequently on Peanuts licensed projects. --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:52, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

in the very first line of dialog, a direct-address comma is required between SEE and MARCIE. It’s likely that this was lost, since Schulz’s punctuation was often written with a very light ink stroke, when the strip was subsequently printed in books, etc. Peace. —MuzikJunky (talk) 21:12, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Which is why that comma is above, it is in the source. But there are the wrong number of periods in the article after "wanted" (should be 2) "dates" (should be zero), "fractions" (should be one), and "sir" (should be none.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Family

Someone added a new section claiming Peppermint Patty's mother is never seen or mentioned, because her father is divorced. Her dad's voice, like all adults, has "wah-wahs". The first statement, that her mother is never mentioned, is arguable; she does in the strip say that she doesn't have a mother, whether one considers that mentioning the mother or not is an interpretation of phrasing. And to the best of my recollection, it's never established that her father is divorced; for all we know, the parents were never married, or they were married and the mother abandoned them without divorcing, or the mother died. If anyone has any better sourcing, please let me know... but barring that, this sentence should probably be removed. I will not remove it myself due to my WP:COI regarding Peanuts. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:38, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

And that section has now been extended with Her dad's voice, like all adults, has "wah-wahs". ( made by musician Dean Hubbard, later Trombone Shorty in 2015. ) Has either of these folks ever done Peppermint Patty's dad's voice? There's no sources here. Trombone Shorty did perform adult voices in The Peanuts Movie, but without going back to review, I don't recall Peppermint Patty's father being in that film. Then the same editor added an "Appearance" section with Peppermint Patty has short, auburn ( sometimes brunette ) hair and wears a striped, green t-shirt, black shorts with two white stripes and green ( sometimes brown ) sandals. She has freckles and is the most "tomboyish" girl in Charlie Brown's school. That last sentence is problematic both as no source for the claim that she was the most tomboyish anywhere, and for the problem that in the strip, Peppermint Patty does not go to Charlie Brown's school (except for a period when Charlie Brown's school was destroyed , at which point Charlie Brown was attending Peppermint Patty's school.) This is handled differently in some of the animation (such as The Peanuts Movie), but here we're discussing the source material. Could someone please review and remove these additions? --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

And now someone has put in guesses about what happened to her mother, which is also inappropriate. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:05, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

And so it continues - there are now two conflicting statements in separate parts of the artticle - the first says that her mother is dead, the second farther down that her mother isn’t mentioned beyond Peppermint Patty saying that she doesn’t have a mother, and that the reason why is not stated. Jock123 (talk) 14:54, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Source of the last name

The article currently has no information on the source of the characters last name. I propose that someone add the following into the Background section:

The character's last name, Reichardt, wasn't used until 1972. Schulz borrowed the last name of his secretary, Sue Reichardt, whose favorite character was Peppermint Patty.

References

I will not be adding it myself, both because I have a general Peanuts-related conflict of interest, and because this is an example of self-citing - I am the author of the second reference. Yes, it's a self-published source, but exception is made for self-published sources by recognized experts of their field; I suspect that as an author of several books on the history of Peanuts, one of which won an award and another of which is on the selected bibliography at the Schulz Museum, I would qualify as that. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:35, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

History changes

I've rewritten the History changes to remove a lot of material and replace it with stuff I could source. This included removing citations added last year by Dwanyewest here, because as far as I can tell, they did not contain the cited information. The new info is mostly cited to the David Michaelis book, including the fact that Peppermint Patty was modeled after Schulz's cousin Patty Swanson, but that he later downplayed that. I also added Michaelis' statement that Marcie was based on Swanson's roommate, although I haven't seen that mentioned in any other source. I also added material suggested by NatGertler above.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:28, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and as SummerPhDv2.0 mentioned several years ago, the lesbian connection should definitely be fleshed out here as it's covered in many reliable sources. I've removed a silly line about Peppermint Patty's "platonic" relationship with Marcie.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:32, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I've removed myself from this topic as I've since published something relating to this. - SummerPhD^v2.0 01:38, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

SummerPhDv2.0, IMO this article would benefit tremendously if you and NatGertler were to contribute to it. The current state of the article, where a number of passages are uncited or mis-cited, and important material isn't covered at all, is much worse for readers whatever risk comes from knowledgeable people citing their own reliable source and/or sharing their expertise. Or if y'all prefer, you could make suggestions here and I'll add them myself.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:31, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Sorry. The best I will do is this: Obviously start with a few searches at Google scholar. As there's a good bit of older material that might not show there, looking at the sources cited by what does come up might be useful. Any reference librarian worth their salt should be able to find everything you could ever want in no time (there's plenty out there). - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:15, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I spend enough of my life on Peanutsy efforts through my blog, my podcast, fielding questions, etc.; if I were to start cleaning up all the Peanuts articles here, that would just be an unpaid time drain with a high level of aggravation. I will keep undoing clear vandalism and making suggestions for factual corrections, but I don't want to put in for much beyond that. --Nat Gertler (talk) 12:10, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Patty's hair color

Why is her hair color given here as "auburn" or "brunette" (uncited), when she is obviously intended to be a readhead, or red-orange (sometimes called "strawberry blonde", though that's the lighter end of the range)? This is consistent with her freckles. There is no source cited for her hair color, and color comics printed in the newspaper often are indeterminate, so you can't go by how it looks from newspaper, TV animation, or even the internet. It would be just as proper to change it to "red hair" as the current text, since there is no citation. Would anyone have heartburn with that? @NatGertler: can you shed any light on Peppermint Patty's hair color? JustinTime55 (talk) 15:57, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

I certainly understand the instinct to treat her as a redhead, particularly with the freckles and the Irish-leaning first name. I'm not sure of any specific textual support for it (red hair has a specific place in the Peanuts realm!), and the closest I know of to PPatty describing her own hair color is when she refers to it as "mousy-blah" (both Nov 23 1974 and Jun 5, 1988, and in She's a Good Skate, Charlie Brown, which takes from the 1974 strip sequence). In hair terms, "mousy" is somewhere between blond and brown. So if we do need a hair descriptor, "mousy" it should be. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:31, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Damage has already been done: Google answers the question as "brown", because we say so(!) One poory correspondent on a blog is confused because "some sources" (guess who) say brown. This has to be fixed ASAP. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Brown is not incorrect; "mousy" is a light brown or a dark blond. If you want to switch it to specifically "mousy", you have my encouragement. It is a legit hair color descriptor, sometimes spelled "mousey". Here the Daily Mail is discussing it (sure, it's a tough paper to trust). Harper's Bazaar. Southern Living. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:42, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, Nat. But I'm still not quite totally convinced. Still frames from The Peanuts Movie (2015) clearly show she was depicted there with the red-orange I remember. And this color, along with the light complexion and freckles, certainly goes along with her peppery personality. (I married one of these.) What would answer the question definitively would be Schultz's original drawings. Wikipedia doesn't have any information on the color "mousy", even in brown hair. Merriam-Webster defines mousy as "grayish brown". We should be as specific as possible, and say PP called it "mousy-blah" and that it is variously rendered as red-orange, auburn, or light brown. ("Brunette" is dark brown, which is completely inaccurate.)

And what are you referring to when you say "red hair has a specific place in the Peanuts realm"? JustinTime55 (talk) 17:01, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

There is one character described primarily by her hair color, the Little Red-Haired Girl. PPatty even discusses that character with Charlie Brown, seeing her as the main challengers for CB's affection, and never brings up a claim that she, too, has red hair. I cannot quickly come up with a presumed-colored-by-Schulz image of PPatty (she's not in either of the animated adaptations he illustrated, for example), but it was of course he who put the "mousy-blah" descriptor in her mouth. If you want to say that's that what she said, and depict the illustration thereof as being along a brown-to-orange spectrum, that's fine with me.... but we have to be too careful about putting too much definitiveness in such depictions (I can show you an example of Franklin being colored as a white guy.) And when it comes to cartooning, the color used is not always intended to be the "real" color; Superman and Lois Lane don't actually have blue hair. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:24, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

How could I forget the Little Red-Haired Girl? I hope I'm not getting Alzheimer's... JustinTime55 (talk) 15:13, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I think the edits you've made are generally good... although you might want to rephrase around "invariably wears green (sometimes brown)"; perhaps "invariably wears flip-flops (usually green, sometimes brown)"? --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:36, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

First name

Why is the first name of Patty in the article heading referred to as "Percilla"?? Should it not be "Patricia"? Who has ever seen this Percilla? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.39.218.10 (talk) 09:28, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Peppermint Patty parents

Someone recently altered the infobox from saying that PP has an unnamed father to that she has unnamed parents. This should be rescinded. In the strip, she repeatedly tells us that she doesn't have a mother. There is no source to depict her as having two unnamed parents. I will not make this change myself because of my Peanuts conflict of interest, but ask that someone else do so. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:17, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, and I reverted the line to "unnamed father". I also removed the mention that Patty's mom had died; the article correctly says later on that the fate of her mother is never revealed. Lastly, I dropped the reference that Patty once carried candy cigarettes in her sleeve. Possibly this came from a TV special at some point, but there is no comic strip in the 60's and 70's that shows her with anything in her sleeve and I doubt very much that Schulz would have introduced that trope in the 80's or 90's after candy cigarettes had almost disappeared in society. Only one web site makes mention of this, but it cites no sources and it appears that the entire page is based off the Wikipedia article. Dpiranha (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Priscilla

The use of "Priscilla" in the Thanksgiving special is not being used as another name for Peppermint Patty, it's a reference to the Longfellow poem, "The Courtship of Miles Standish". The poem, about the early days of the Pilgirms Plymouth colony, became something of a traditional Thanksgiving story in the Americas, and the main characters are Miles Standish, John Alden, and Pricilla Mullins. Marcie is suggesting that she, Pepermint Patty, and Charlie Brown are acting out the Thanksgiving tale of Miles Standish in real life.

This is not clear from the comment in the lede. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 01:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I removed the reference to "Priscilla". The TV specials aren't canonical, and even if they were, it's clear Marcie is referring to the traditional Thanksgiving story. Dpiranha (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:12, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Actual Peppermint Pattie

The note currently reads "This has led to some confusion over whether Peppermint Patty is named for simple peppermint candies or the actual York Peppermint Patty." The use of "actual" makes it seem like the York product is the genuine deal, and using the term to refer to any other concoction is a blurring of a trademark. In actuality, the term "peppermint patty" was in use well before York started making their enrobed patties in 1940 -- here is an example from an 1892 newspaper. Additionally, York spells their trademark Pattie, not Patty. As such, I recommend changing "the actual York Peppermint Patty" to "or specifically the York Peppermint Pattie". Due to COIs and to my general avoidance of article editing, I recommend that others review this suggestion and implement it if they feel it proper. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

People should stop assuming that she is a lesbian.

Peppermint Patty is usually target of assumption that she is a lesbian, even though it's proven false.

I assume that whoever came with that assumption believe that "if a little girl isn't feminine enough it's because she is a lesbian".

No, children like her doesn't even known grownup stuff like same sex relationships.

That's why children are growing up confused, adults assume that they're already developing LGBT traits and intruding their personal lives without knowing that is child abuse.

That's the same case of a 7 years old boy who was playing with girls rather than boys and a parent questioned if was a problem since they were worried, because they think he wants to become a girl.

Then, someone said that person should let his son being a seven years old and don't emphasis in which one he wants to play or not, because boy sees his sisters having fun and want to join the fun.

Parents like that are what causing children to be confused.

They should stop assuming things on a child's thought process, they're adults and yet don't get it.

Besides, it's dishonest for LGBT groups appropriating of a children character as one of their own even though it's a ongoing subject that she have a unrequited crush on Charlie Brown and even likes to be kissed by a boy like Pig-pen who gave her a dirty goodbye kiss which left her overjoyed.

If a relative thinks that a girl is not feminine enough and tells her to her face that she is becoming a lesbian then it is possible that she will suffer serious psychological problems in the future.

I'd suggest pointing out that whole assumption about Peppermint Patty being LGBT is false and that LGBT groups shouldn't take her as one of their own since children like herself doesn't even know complex matters as such same sex relationships. EmersonRFarias (talk) 07:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)