Talk:Pentobarbital

Approved

Approved means FDA approved? That's a strong UScentric bias. It's an approved substance in Oregon, and there's little debate that it achieves the desired effect, so it should be listed. Just as a drug approved in Sweden for some purpose should be listed, or a drug approved in Malaysia. Sarge Baldy 20:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is what I originally wrote (prior to the edit conflict—I just had to go and clean up the approved uses format. Blech.):

Because while it may be used for such in the state of Oregon (PDF), it is not FDA (or anywhere else's agency) approved for such a purpose. I'm talking about in humans, by the way.

I only added the information in the third parentheses to make it less US-centric. I'm not saying that approved = FDA-approved. I said FDA approved because Oregon fell under their jurisdiction, and it sounded as if you were going by their use alone (are you?). In Oregon, like the rest of the United States, substances can be approved for one use, and prescribed for something else entirely (notice that Davis's Drug Guide for Nurses mentions coma induction is ischemia patients as an off-label use. Do you really see the manufacturers (yes, there's more than one at this point) going to the FDA and asking them for official approval for physician-assisted suicide? There just isn't that much money in it (it went generic decades ago, not exactly the most common use, etc). And doctors in Oregon already know it's good for that, so why bother?

I notice that you didn't cite single source for it's being approved for that purpose anywhere.--Rmky87 20:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Image

The image is wrong, it has one to many carbons in the 1-methylbutyl group. KarlHallon 17:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

--I second this comment. The following link shows an accurate model of pentobarbital: http://redpoll.pharmacy.ualberta.ca/drugbank/cgi-bin/getCard.cgi?CARD=APRD01174.txt. Does anyone know how to go about correcting this image?

The image is now correct. AxelBoldt (talk) 04:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Drug Interactions

I have commented out a contribution in the drug interactions section, I am sorry for not just correcting it, but I dont consider myself knowledgeable enough to correct it. I commented it out instead of deleting it so that it may be promptly corrected, the relevant citation is included here for the same purpose.

The cited article states in the abstract (and the title) that norfluoxetine facilitates pentobarbital sedation, which is measured by the loss of the righting reflex. The abstract states that social isolation reverses the loss of the righting reflex, that is, social isolation decreases sedation (it is hinted that this is because of increased anxiety. Norfluoxetine, restores (or facilitates) sedation. The cited article's horrible redaction is at fault here, it uses a triple negation, stating that the administration of fluoxetine to socially isolated mice reverses the reduced duration of pentobarbital-induced righting reflex loss.

Again, I apologize for merely deleting this, but it seemed to me that an interaction reported as the opposite of what it is should not be left in the article. I dont mean to offend the author, who is probably better read than me in this topic, and it is only through his impeccable citation that I detected the mistake.Apwith 13:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is the original statement in the article:

The S-isomers of fluoxetine and its active metabolite, norfluoxetine, reverse the down-regulation of allopregnanolone by pentobarbital, thus reversing the loss of righting reflex, at doses 10-50 times lower than that required for serotonin reuptake.

Any suggestions for a better formulation? AxelBoldt (talk) 04:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

References and End Notes

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apwith (talk • contribs) 13:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

I'm not sure how to feel about having information available on using this agent as a "human" euthanasia agent. But I guess if you're bent on ending your life, why not find pertinent information on the mother of all misinforming websites: Wikipedia? I just fear for the suicidal folks that may come across this page. Suicidal people might come across this info at a very tumultuous time & use it, when if they had waited out or worked through the sorrow, they would most certainly be glad to be alive. Too bad there's not some sort of button that links these sorts to websites or phone numbers that can help them through their crises. Wikipedia should take things like this into consideration, but they don't seem to push for edits or rewrites of much of anything, even when some pages are so slanted I have to turn my head to read them. If someone who is suicidal & is contemplating this method of ending their lives is reading this, I beg of you to speak with someone about it. While ending a physically suffering person's life may call for euthanasia, suicide of healthy folks who have lots of living to do & plenty of things to contribute to society is just so sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.36.138 (talk) 09:44, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

They'd find it difficult to get hold of, unless they knew a friendly vet. 171.98.131.226 (talk)

la formule du pentobarbital est de c11h13n2o3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.49.247.171 (talk) 09:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Used in lethal injection in China

As far as I'm aware of, there's no credible source indicating that pentobarbital is used in lethal injection in China. The only thing for sure is that some form of barbiturate is used, but it may not be pentobarbital. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.14.117 (talk) 07:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

How does Pentobarbital work in the brain/body?

This article is lacking information on which receptors are targeted in the brain, which body parts are affected and so on. 50.47.157.152 (talk) 04:24, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

It binds to GABA-A receptors where it acts as a positive allosteric modulator. When GABA subsequently binds to the same receptors the chloride channel remains open for longer than it normally would do allowing a greater influx of chloride ions into the neuron, thus hyperpolarizing it. So it reduces the activity of neurons containing GABA-A receptors which has the overall effect of reducing brain activity in general hence being useful for epilepsy. 151.227.182.114 (talk) 22:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

popular culture section

I have removed the following items in the "In popular culture" section because they all appear to be mere trivial references. Pentobarbital does not appear to be relevant to the story line of any of these items, and they do not appear to be all that relevant to the current content of this article. If someone thinks there is relevant and notable content here, and they can write some coherent prose about pentobarbital in popular culture, please feel free to add that to the article. -- Ed (Edgar181) 18:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that the "In Popular Culture" section should be reinstated to the article as it serves as an interest point to the drug's history and saturation throughout society. While the drug may not be the focus of majority of the examples listed below the mentioning of 'Nembutal' in the following displays it's relevance serving as a cultural aesthetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariadavid (talk • contribs) 03:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Philip K. Dick's novel VALIS opens with the sentence "Horselover Fat's nervous breakdown began the day he got the phonecall from Gloria asking if he had any Nembutals". The suicide attempt of Gloria with Nembutals borrowed from the main character is the starting point of the whole story.<ref>http://naderlibrary.com/dick.VALIS1.htm</ref>

In the science fiction film Sphere, Nembutals are mentioned within the context of a suicide attempt that occurred prior to the start of the film by one of the movie's main characters.

In the 1957 novel On the Beach by Nevil Shute, the Australian government mass-distributes Nembutal in red cartons for voluntary euthanasia as radiation sickness spreads south in the final days of mankind following World War III.<ref>Nevil Shute, ''On the Beach'', New York, William Morrow and Company, 1957. (See p. 296 identifying the red cartons as Nembutal).</ref>

In the 1960 novel The Moviegoer by Walker Percy, Kate Cutrer takes Nembutals for her depression, causing her mother to worry about suicide when she takes four at once.

Famous film Actor George Sanders (1906-1972) told fellow actor David Niven in 1937, that he intended to commit suicide when he got older. In 1972, he fulfilled his promise. He checked into a hotel in Barcelona and two days later, his body was discovered next to five empty tubes of Nembutal. He left this note: "Dear World, I am leaving because I am bored. I feel I have lived long enough. I am leaving you with your worries in this sweet cesspool. Good luck." (source IMDB)

In the 1979 album London Calling by the British punk/rock band The Clash the drug is mentioned in the line "Nembutal numbs it all, but I prefer Alcohol," referencing Montgomery Clift on the track, The Right Profile.

Pentobarbital is referred in William S. Burroughs's novel Junky as "Nembutal" "Nembies" and "Goofballs". In the semi-autobiographical novel, Burroughs uses it to relieve symptoms from heroin withdrawals.

In the HBO show The Sopranos, season 2 episode 12, Janice Soprano uses two Nembutals to sedate her mother, Livia Soprano.

In the HBO show The Wire, season 2 episode 10, Ziggy Sobotka references his mother's apparent abuse of Nembutal to "sleep the day away".

In March 2010, the PBS documentary television series Frontline aired a documentary called "The Suicide Tourist" which told the story of Dr. Craig Ewert's trip to Switzerland in 2006 to commit assisted suicide (with the help of Dignitas) using Sodium Pentobarbital. He made the decision to euthanize himself shortly after he was diagnosed with Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.

A scene in the movie The Royal Tenenbaums features the line "Get me a Nembutal, would ya?," spoken by Royal, played by Gene Hackman, after he collapses on the floor of a makeshift hospital room in his former mansion.

An early scene in the HBO movie Gia shows Gia's modeling agent instructing her to take a Nembutal to calm her nerves before her first photo shoot. This may allude to Gia's future drug use, which caused her to contract AIDS and eventually die.

In the movie Terminator 3 : Rise of the Machines John Connor, as a young man. breaks into a vets drug supply to use some Penobarbital to help ease his pain.

The poem Green Dream by joe Dolce is Nembutal :http://verityla.com/green-dream-joe-dolce/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.114.167.88 (talk) 10:33, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Executions

I also believe the whole recent newspaper trail of executions and delayed executions and what the judge said etc. etc. etc. does not belong here with more than one sentence. Take that to an article of US death penalty. We also do not collect such information and paper trail in the article Rope likewise. 70.137.128.180 (talk) 12:49, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Paste execution paper trail

I have copied the executions part here.

On December 16, 2010, John David Duty of Oklahoma became the first American to be executed by pentobarbital among other drugs. On March 10, 2011, also in Ohio, convicted murderer Johnnie Baston became the first person in the United States executed with the single-dose drug pentobarbital. On March 16, 2011 Michelle Lyons, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, said the new drug would be used for the first time in the nation’s busiest execution chamber in the scheduled April 5 execution of convicted murderer Cleve Foster. Foster's execution was later blocked by the U.S. Supreme Court; instead, convicted murderer Cary Kerr became the first Texas inmate executed with the drug. On May 25, 2011, convicted killer Donald Beaty was put to death in Arizona by lethal injection after hours of legal delays in which his defense team fought to challenge a change in the drugs used to kill him. Beaty, 56, was put to death at about 8 p.m. at Arizona State Prison Complex-Florence for the 1984 murder of 13-year-old Christy Ann Fornoff.

70.137.128.180 (talk) 12:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Broken Link

The link to Lundbeck's statement regarding the use of the drug for the death penalty is broken: Lundbeck no longer has the page. (note [8] in the text) 76.0.9.41 (talk) 11:08, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

First synthesized in 1928?

According to the German wikipedia article, Pentobarbital was _patented_ by Bayer in 1916. See link to original patent: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentobarbital#cite_note-5 Danny.adair (talk) 04:02, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Worth inclusion?

I haven't the slightest if this is something that should be added or is worth adding, but according to http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/01/ohio-family-raped-murdered-6-month-old-watches-killers-execution/?intcmp=HPBucket , Ohio has started using it and has enough left to execute two of its death row prisoners before running out. 161.225.129.111 (talk) 03:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

The drug is owned?

If the drug has been used for such a long time, as mentioned in the article, any patents must have expired. So in what sense is the drug "owned"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.58.102 (talk) 12:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Dubious

I added the dubious tag as the statement, which while partially supported by the blog source appears to be incorrect. I think it's conflating 2 different things. There are several drug shortages affecting lethal injection procedure in the US. Pancuronium bromide was traditionally used as part of the 3 'drug' (some would question if potassium chloride is really a drug) cocktail. However its use is being abandoned I think partially because of drug shortages but also because of concerns over the protocol. Sodium thiopental or Pentobarbital are the first and arguably the most important part of the cocktail. From what I understand, these basically serve the same purpose and one can generally replace the other. The switch to pentobarbital arose mostly because of shortages of sodium thippental. The development of the new cocktail, using either only sodium thiopental or only pentobarbital or one of those in combination with midazolam and hydromorphone was as I said, primarily because of concerns over the effectiveness of the old protocol in certain cases. Now of course both sodium thiopenta; and pentobarbital are in short supply so attemptes are being made to use only midazolam and hydromorphone [1]. Nil Einne (talk) 00:46, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Pancuronium bromide is not a muscle relaxant. Like both Cistacurium and Vecuronium bromide, it is a paralytic of the non-depolarizing type, which work by inhibiting the binding of acetylcholine at the end plate of the neuromuscular junction without triggering the impulse, as does succhylcholine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.153.29.9 (talk) 08:16, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

"Pentos"

Sometimes pentobarbiturates are called "pentos", right? Yev Yev (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Tests for Nembutal Solution / Liquid Nembutal

I would appreciate it if someone can provide a VERY DETAILED response concerning the TASTE and SMELL of Sodium Pentobarbital, and tie this in with the "Known

Chemical Reaction Tests for Nembutal" section. Comments 1 & 2 would appear to be about NEMBUTAL-SOLUTION :

1) TASTE : https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=68249 states that "pento [Nembutal] is the foulest and most bitter tasting drug I've ever drunk"

a) What is the AFTERTASTE of Nembutal Solution?

2) SMELL : http://alt.suicide.methods.narkive.com/Ed5U62yH/getting-nembutal-past-customs#post8 states that "But it [Nembutal] smells and tastes like alcohol that's "turned." Small mouthwash bottle (i.e., listerene)...."

a) It would appear that Nembutal has some alcohol-like smell associated with it.

NOTE : CLEARLY there is a difference between taking NEMBUTAL-POWDER and NEMBUTAL-SOLUTION, the powder won't smell or taste of anything (and, hence, might be difficult to verify as Nembutal due to lack of taste/smell) whereas the Liquid WILL have a smell & taste. ASavantDude (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Known Chemical Reaction Tests for Nembutal

What chemical reactions can be used as a test for Nembutal? In particular, it is possible to buy Barbiturate Tests BUT these are NOT Nembutal Specific. Are there any tests that can be carried out ON TOP OF BARBITURATE TESTS to test for Nembutal?

In particular, given the TASTE & SMELL tests above, AND a Barbiturate test that is POSITIVE, what barbiturates TASTE and SMELL like Nembutal Solution WITHOUT being Nembutal? If the answer is NONE, then the taste & smell & barbiturate test would appear to be conclusive. ASavantDude (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Physical Properties inc. Taste, Smell, pH-value of Four Common Barbiturates

Do the Barbiturates Phenobarbital, Pentobarbital, Secobarbital and Amobarbital have different properties? In particular, are there laboratory tests for differentiating between the different Barbiturates? Properties to consider would include TASTE, SMELL and pH-value. Another consideration would be solubility, in particular, Pentobarbital has a reasonably long Carbon-Chain attached to the Carbon-Nitrogen ring, so this might have a solubility effect. Unfortunately, it is not clear what actual measurable properties these drugs have (so how would a Chemist of Pharamacist know that they actually have a particular Barbiturate?).

ASavantDude (talk) 18:33, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

SODIUM PENTOBARBITAL IS *NOT* PENTOBARBITAL FREE ACID

The article starts off with the observation that the free-acid form of Pentobarbital is insoluble in water and ethanol. It then goes onto abuse language by saying that Pentobarbital is lethal. It is not clear whether the article refers to SODIUM-PENTOBARBITAL (Nembutal) or Pentobarbital (the free acid) at various points within the article. THE ARTICLE SHOULD BE RE-WRITTEN TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN NEMBUTAL AND PENTOBARBITAL, FOLLOWING THE CONVENTION THAT THE WORD 'Sodium-Pentobarbital' or 'Free-Pentobarbital' should be used in the relevant cases to AVOID SCOPE FOR CONFUSION. ASavantDude (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Fix your capslock and both forms are just Pentobarbital after all, not something completely different. Same drug, only difference are things like solubility. Aethyta (talk) 20:16, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

I would argue that the ionic form of Pentobarbital in Sodium Pentobarbital is NOT the same thing as the "Free Pentobarbital". I do not know whether the ionic form is the only form that is absorbed by the Central Nervous System via the Digestive System But, IF you believe that they have the same pharmocological effect, I think that you should cite such an assertion. From what I would GUESS, they have different effects (unless the body somehow converts Pentobarbital into the ionic form for uptake by the Central Nervous System - in which case, they would have the same effect). The article is ambiguous as to whether Sodium Pentobarbital and 'Free' Pentobarbital have the same effect.

ASavantDude (talk) 15:55, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Sources Don't make it clear whether 'Free-Pentobarbital' is Lethal or not

Is 'Free-Pentobarbital' lethal when ingested as powder? ASavantDude (talk) 19:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Important Chemical Information

At various points, this page does not seem to make the explicit distinction between SODIUM-PENTOBARBITAL (which is Nembutal) and PENTOBARBITAL (which, according to certain sources, is a water insoluble crystalline solid quite distinct from Sodium Pentobarbital). It is meant to be quite possible to convert Sodium Pentobarbital (Nembutal) to Pentobarbital via the addition of acetic acid (vinegar) OR Dilute Hydrochloric Acid. Converting Pentobarbital to Sodium Pentobarbital requires the addition of Aqueous Sodium Hydroxide or Aqueous Sodium Carbonate (in alcohol according to online sources, but it is not clear if the conversion can take place in just water, or just alcohol, or whether it has to be a mix of water-alcohol).

Due to Pentobarbital's limited solubility in both water and alcohol, it is NOT clear how lethal this substance necessarily is, or whether the body absorbs it as well as Nembutal (the Sodium Salt). Further, even journal articles do not tend to emphasise this difference between the two. IT IS **POSSIBLE** THAT PENTOBARBITAL IS NOT LETHAL DUE TO ITS INSOLUBILITY IN WATER.

It is also not clear whether Pentobarbital has the same bitter/nasty taste attributed to Sodium-Pentobarbital. This bitter/nasty taste can trigger vomiting just by itself, even if small amounts of the drug are ingested (see www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/assisted-suicide-one-last-helping-hand-7670487.html). Apparently, the provision of a (likely) anti-emetic should prevent this, but the taste is profoundly unpleasant and acts as a barrier to drinking significant quantities of Sodium Pentobarbital. The possibility arises that Pentobarbital does not taste as bitter, and is just as lethal. Or, alternatively, it is possible that mixtures of Pentobarbital can be converted to Sodium Pentobarbital (online sources state this requires dissolving the Pentobarbital partially in alcohol at least), and then drying this out to obtain Nembutal (Sodium Pentobarbital) powder which can be ingested. The only hypothetical reason one would then have for converting Nembutal to Pentobarbital is to separate it from mixtures of Ethylene glycol & alcohol that likely make up veterinary Nembutal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ASavantDude (talk • contribs) 10:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Flag error on Pentobarbital page

My name is Julia Simonsen, and I work for H Lundbeck A/S as Medical Information Specialist. My intent is to provide referenced and accurate information to the editors of Wikipedia for their use in Lundbeck related articles in order to help ensure that Wikipedia has the correct and latest information. Please see my user page JuliaSimonsen for information regarding my intentions for engagement on Wikipedia in alignment with their conflict of interest. Thank you.

It is not correct that ‘Nembutal is trademarked and manufactured by the Danish pharmaceutical company Lundbeck, and is the only injectable form of pentobarbital approved for sale in the United States’. Lundbeck no longer holds the license to manufacture pentobarbital (Nembutal). In 2011 Lundbeck divested a portfolio of products including Nembutal to US pharmaceutical company Akorn Inc.. See link. http://investor.lundbeck.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=635094 — Preceding unsigned comment added by JuliaSimonsen (talk • contribs) 12:40, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: how many minutes does it take for this drug to kill (presumably via respiratory arrest), when it is used for execution? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 00:32, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Euthanasia dosage

The dosage required for successful euthanasia with Nembutal (pento. sodium) is 10g. That data was removed recently with the comment "WP does not provide dose information". Indeed, WP has a guideline about not including dosages for pharmaceutical drugs. I quote David Ruben:

Wikipedia's guideline of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(medicine-related_articles)#Drugs explicitly states 'Do not include dose and titration information except when they are notable or necessary for the discussion in the article' and goes on to state 'Wikipedia is not an instruction manual or textbook and should not include instructions, advice (legal, medical or otherwise) or "how-to"s' Indeed the Medical disclaimer should be carefully noted (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Medical_disclaimer) So except for rare occasions, it is not thought appropriate to give dosage details, and thereby a potential patient must seek more appropriate advice elsewhere (instructions on the label or patient information leaflet for a start, and more specifically from one's pharmacist or doctor should be encouraged).

However, this guideline applies to medicinal drugs, not to a one-dose, one-time use drug like Nembutal. This is not a medication. There is only one dose, and that's 10 gram. There is no difference in prescription doses by country or jurisdiction. There is no maximum and minimum dose. There is only one dose, 10g, and that is a notable fact, and that should not be removed. This is the "rare occasion" that Ruben refers to. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)